Ep. 2 - Jack Daniel's Chief Historian Nelson Eddy

Transcript

Drew (00:00:15):
Welcome to Whiskey Lore, the interviews. I'm your host, Drew Hamish, the Amazon bestselling author of the Whiskey Lore Travel Guide to Experiencing Kentucky Bourbon. And during this encore episode, we're gonna get a chance to meet Nelson Eddie, the longtime historian for the Jack Daniels brand in distillery. He's been with the company since way back in the late 1980s. So he's got lots of stories to share. And I had first heard Nelson on Jack Daniels podcast around the barrel, episode number 23 if you want to go look for it. And during the interview, Nelson had brought up an interesting piece of history that I hadn't heard about a shootout in Nashville, Tennessee between two newspaper men that led directly to Tennessee going into prohibition. And in fact, they went into prohibition 10 years before the rest of the nation. So I decided to reach out to him because I really wanted to do an episode of whiskey lore all around that.

(00:01:19):
And I did do that in season three of whiskey lore. And I also ended up doing stories about Jack Daniel and Uncle Nearest. And so we covered a lot of the subjects in there and this whole interview was meant for me to get some sound bites for that particular podcast. And what was fun about this interview is that after it was over, we sat there sipping our whiskeys, probably talked for another hour and a half. And he was mentioning when I asked him about where he came from, he said he was from Ann Arbor. And I said, Well, that's interesting cuz I'm from Detroit. And then come to find out, we were both just using nearby locations to the place we actually grew up, which was Brighton, Michigan. We're both from the same town. And he actually went to school with my brother at Brighton High School.

(00:02:12):
So that was small world, definitely a small world. Now in this interview, there are definitely no topics that are off limits. We're gonna talk about Sinatra's obsession with Jack Daniels. We're gonna talk about the safe that supposedly killed Jack Daniel. We're gonna talk about the shootout in Nashville, how Jack Daniel changed proof over the years, and some of the controversy around the distilleries. First Master Stiller Nathan Uncle Nearest Green. Now, we conducted this interview back in 2020 while I was doing my initial tour of the Tennessee Whiskey Trail. We met up at the Bethel House, which is the original visitor center going back to 1964. We social distance to cross a long wooden table that contained bottles of Sinatra select Jack Daniels Rye and Tennessee honey. And we wasted no time jumping into the conversation. I was not that familiar with the early years of Jack Daniels and how he ended up becoming a distiller and his relationship, uh, with a preacher. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who apparently as Laura goes, was a guiding hand in helping him discover the pleasure of distilling whiskey. So what, give the, a little bit of background, if you could, on Jack Daniels and, um, his family life and how he got into whiskey distilling.

Nelson (00:03:44):
Sure. Now, if you wander around the hollow and you look at the statue of Jack at the visitor's center and you go and you look at his grave, it's gonna say that he was born in 1850. And if, uh, we can prove two more am miracles, we can make Jack a saint because his mother died before 1850. So his birth in 1850 is highly problematic. Okay. That is probably the year that Lamont Lo, who had those two works done, was told by Jack. It was 1850, Jack might not have known. And the reason he's, he's born in 1848 and we get that date mainly from the census records where they record how old he was. So from those census records, we can deduce and, uh, that he was born in 1848, September of 1848. We don't know the exact day cuz we don't have a birth certificate.

(00:04:40):
But he's born in 1848 and he leaves home at a very early age, um, you know, anywhere from five to eight years old in that timeframe, he'll leave home. And the reason he leaves home is he's the last of 10 children. And his mother will pass away probably because of complications of some sort, uh, of the birth or being weakened because of the birth of Jack. But she'll die shortly after he's born in 1848. She'll die in 49. Okay? And then, um, his father will do what any intelligent man who has 10 children will do <laugh>. He immediately gets remarried.

Drew (00:05:21):
Okay?

Nelson (00:05:22):
So he'll get remarried and have three more children. So a family of 13, well, Jack's the last of 10 of that first family, and apparently he feels neglected. That's the story that's told. And he'll leave home and he'll go to work, uh, with a neighbor and friend, a a member of the Wagner family who'll go there first. Uh, because you know it, in this day and age kids, they're beloved, but they're also considered labor. Mm. And, uh, you know, Jack's dad was a farmer. The Wagner family will farm. And so Jack is is taken in, but he has to kind of earn his keep. He'll start with the Wagner family, but later he'll be introduced to the Dan call family. Okay. And, and calls a local Lutheran minister. But he's far more than that. He's a farmer too. Uh, so, and he has a general store and on his property, as many people in the county, uh, would have a still, uh, they'd have a still because that's one way to keep your corn.

(00:06:29):
It's not only not gonna go bad if you keep it as whiskey, it's actually gonna go up in price. Right. So, um, he'll have a still on his property and he will have an enslaved man on the property by the name of Nathan Green. Uh, who, who's known by his nickname as many people, including Jack Daniels, are known by a nickname. Right. His nickname is Nearest Jacks is Jack, but his real name is Jasper Newton Daniel. Uh, we don't think we sell nearly as much Jasper Newton as we do, Jack. Yeah. So we're glad that he went by a nickname <laugh>. So, um, Nearest is on the property there with his family, and Jack comes along and the Lutheran minister has a young family started and he has, you know, the general store, the congregation, the farm, the still. So he'll take Jack on or, uh, initially it's just to help out mm-hmm.

(00:07:27):
<affirmative>. But over time Jack will meet, uh, nearest sons first he'll meet George and Eli Green. They're much closer to, uh, Jack's age. The nearest is. But eventually he'll meet Nearest, come to the still. Now the call family has a history in making whiskey. And, and Nearest has his history. We don't know where that comes from, uh, by the Census records. We can tell at one point, uh, we find that he's from Maryland. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, he has some whiskey making knowledge. Um, Dan Call's family has some whiskey making knowledge, but day to day, the person at the still is Nearest Green. Okay. And so Jack Daniels though, he comes to live and work for Dan, call the Lutheran minister. He will be mentored and he'll learn the trade of making whiskey at the side of Nearest Green because Dan calls got all these other things he's gotta do. But Nearest is given charge of the still. He's, uh, Dan calls head distiller. And so it's at nearest speed that Jack will learn how to make whiskey. He'll learn about the Lincoln County process, which is unique, or at that time was unique to this area. There are now, today to be a Tennessee whiskey, you have to use, uh, you have to charcoal mellow, which back in Jack's Day was known as the Lincoln County process. Right. He'll learn that from Nearest. And, um, that's how he gets his start in making whiskey.

Drew (00:09:05):
So the interesting thing about the Lincoln County process is that it's attributed to Uncle Nearest in some ways, uh, and to it was attributed to, to Jack at one point. But isn't it a process that also was probably being used by other people around that time, like whiskey, rectifier, people like that? Potentially

Nelson (00:09:29):
The, the whole idea of using charcoal or carbon, uh, to clean a whiskey or to purify a spirit is, is not, that whole general idea is not unique to Jack Daniels. The method and time in which we employ it is pretty unique. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, there's some people who are doing some rectifying at different parts in the process. I know that a lot, a lot of whiskeys today will, um, use carbon in a filtering process, uh, to maybe remove some calcium, some things that might cause a whiskey to flock. Right. So, and Rectifier used it. The unique thing that Jack Daniels did is right off the still to run, um, run the whiskey through 10 feet of sugar maple charcoal. It's that entire process that was unique to Jack Daniels and attributable, you know, did Nearest invent it? We don't know. But the story is told that African American slaves in this area mm-hmm. <affirmative> developed it, and that it was first employed by a distillery that no longer exists, a distiller by the name of Alfred Eaton. It said back in the 1820s he was using this process and that it, that it, um, people generally agree that it was something that was learned from the slaves who were actually making the whiskey.

Drew (00:11:01):
Right. So the interesting thing about the Uncle Nearest story is the time period. Yeah. Cause this was still before the Civil War, Correct? Yes.

Nelson (00:11:12):
This is before the Civil War. And, and like I said, you know, Jack would've learned that process, the Lincoln County process from Nearest, um, and he would've worked at his side. This is all before the Civil War. And, and at one point, Jack and Nearest are left in charge with Dan call off to fight the war. Um, so they're really, you know, working side by side and deciding what's gonna be done, why Dan call is gone. So once, uh, Dan call comes back, there's a kind of a religious movement that's going on, and it's in the wake of a war, which so many people died. And religious spirit, you know, really took over and, and it totally makes sense why people were quite aware of their own mortality mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so there's this wave of, uh, preaching that's going on, and it comes to Lynchburg. And the preacher, uh, kind of convinces the congregation that, you know, Dan call needs to take up one of his religious, of his spiritual pursuits, but not both <laugh>. He can either make whiskey Right. And, uh, or he can preach and Dan's wife agrees. So that makes it really hard. So Dan Ca will sell his distillery, uh, to Jack. And so Jack will take over this distillery, establish it with the federal government in 1866. But the distillery he establishes in 1866 is on that Diane call Property.

Drew (00:12:45):
Okay. Is now, was it actually called the call. And Daniel,

Nelson (00:12:49):
There's some disagreement, you know, Dan and Call that is a distillery out there, and that's a partnership between Dan Call and Jack Daniels. Right. But at some point, Jack completely takes over the distillery. So this is an entirely different operation, or I don't, whether it ran it coincided with that or ran separately, or it's an evolution of that. We're not entirely sure

Drew (00:13:15):
Because they give another date. Also, I hear 1875 sometimes thrown

Nelson (00:13:19):
Around. Yes. 1875 is a date that we can point to in the books. Yeah. Uh, with Dan and Co Daniel and Carl. But the 1866 date predates that and, um, is the date of the establishment. You'll see that. And different people will dispute that. Um, we don't have any records that would say that's the date. Right. But it's the date we've always had handed down since Jack himself. And so until we can find proof that it's absolutely not that date, Yeah. We're gonna stick with what we have

Drew (00:13:53):
<laugh>. It's that challenge of when you can't even get his birthdate out of him straight and, and a time when there weren't, I mean, being the first registered distillery, it tells you there, there was no real formalization of distilleries up to this time past the Civil War.

Nelson (00:14:10):
It's interesting. You know, the whole idea of, uh, taxing whiskey or deciding to, um, uh, ask Distillers to license themselves is really an outcome of war. I mean, we know the Whiskey Rebellion and the tax on whiskey was to help pay off the Revolutionary War. And that this whiskey tax that was instituted, uh, or the, you know, licensing process that was instituted was something that was done by Abraham Lincoln and by the government to pay for the Civil War. Right. Uh, so in both those cases, but the 1866 is the date that we've always had. But you're right. I mean, there's no record of what day and year. Uh, Jack's born people make a big deal. Some, well, certainly he had a birth certificate. Well, at the time, birth certificates weren't mandatory and there was something you had to pay for mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So not everybody had a birth certificate. And, uh, you know, there's been a story that's been circulated. Well, um, the courthouse burned down, Well, the courthouse that Jack's birth certificate would've been housed in, which is Lincoln County didn't burn down then. Oh. So

Drew (00:15:24):
Well, and the other place that you go, me knowing from my dad's genealogy research is, or churches mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But do we even know what church is?

Nelson (00:15:33):
Yes, we do. Jack, Jack would be a primitive Baptist. Okay. Uh, but there's no christening of Jack at an early age or any record like that. Uh, but he becomes a primitive Baptist towards the end of his life. Um, and, you know, he's noted for having contributed to the building of most every church in the county, with the exception of one that wouldn't take any money from a distiller when they were building their church <laugh>. So the 1866 date is the date that's been handed down. Um, much like Jack's birth. If we can find documents that will change that, uh, we'll be compelled to go. But until that day we're, we're, we're sticking with 1866.

Drew (00:16:17):
So 1871 is the year that Lincoln, I mean Moore County, that Moore County became a county. It was taken from parts of three counties, from what I understand, one being Lincoln County. When did the name Lincoln County process get attached? Was it anywhere ever talked about back then, or was it more of a modern kind of a name?

Nelson (00:16:42):
No, uh, the Lincoln County process name is a name that comes out of the time of Jack and Lamb. When there was, it would've come out of the time before my Moore County. So it had been prior to 1870. Okay. Because it's the Lincoln County process, because that's the county in which it's used. Yeah. And, uh, you know, j in Jack's Day, there may have been as many of 15 distillers all using the same process mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, but we have an 1896 Nashville American newspaper story that's written about, it's, it's actually printed verbatim in this Jack Daniels legacy book. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they print the entire story in this book. Um, but you can, you know, today you can get that online. You can find the 1896, uh, Nashville American. And, uh, in that article it talks about the many people who are using this process, but that Jack's whiskey is better.

(00:17:41):
And the reason it's better is cuz he changes the charcoal out more often. Okay. And, you know, charcoal will lose its ability to absorb any more oils or what it's taking out of the whiskey. Uh, it'll lose that ability in time. And Jack would change out his whiskey, which we know today. I mean, it's more than a million dollars every year that's just focuses on paying for the charcoal mellowing process. Uh, so back in Jack's day, the way people might cut a corner is to continue to let the charcoal stay in the VAs even after it, It's lost its ability to filter the whiskey.

Drew (00:18:24):
Okay. And then we talk about the Uncle Nearest story. And you mentioned this book. Is this book really the first time that anybody in the 20th century or 21st century really started paying attention to the, or knew of the Uncle Nearest story?

Nelson (00:18:46):
You know, in Jack's day, in day for years here at the distillery and back in the early, early days, it would've naturally been a part of the story. Um, The Greens, you know, Jack, when he moves to this location somewhere between 1881 and 1885, we know he buys it in 1884 mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So at that point, we're absolutely sure he is here. But he could have come as early as 1881. Those years. Were Tru still looking at, uh, Fawn Weaver, uh, has helped us a lot in researching that. It's something that she's interested in too. And the reason she's interested in is because Nearest will not make the trip to this location. Okay. He'll stay at the Danka farm Yeah. But is a freed man. Uh, when Jack, uh, establishes distillery in 1866, um, near screen would be his very first master distiller. That's something that Fawn Weaver, that's a piece of information that Fawn Weaver has helped us put together.

(00:19:52):
And we officially recognized in 2017. So Nearest Green is our very first master distiller. Uh, he's a free man with Jack. Jack never had slaves, but he'll come to this property nearest, we don't know why, never makes the trip, but his two sons will. And so George and Eli Green, who had befriended, uh, Jack, uh, there at the Dan Call Farm will become his first, uh, employees of the green family here on this property. And there's been a green, a member of that family working on this property. And even when we moved, uh, to St. Louis mm-hmm. <affirmative> members of the Green Family Wow. Went Yeah. Um, ever since to this day's, there are members of that family

Drew (00:20:39):
That's brand loyalty. Oh,

Nelson (00:20:41):
Well,

Drew (00:20:42):
Yeah.

Nelson (00:20:42):
I think that's, that loyalty flows two ways. Yeah. I mean, uh, uh, the Daniel family, the Malos, uh, were extremely loyal to the, to the green family and, and vice versa.

Drew (00:20:55):
And so even today there are greens

Nelson (00:20:58):
That work here. Yeah. We have three members of the Green family that are, are working here at the Jack Daniel Distillery. And I mean, there's more representation of the Green family to date in town, uh, than there is of the Jack Daniels family. Um, working at the distillery, uh, there's a member of the Malow Daniel family, uh, that lives in England. Her name's Jennifer Motlow Powell, and she continues to work for Jack Daniels in the uk.

Drew (00:21:27):
Okay. Jack Daniels came along at a very interesting time because of the Temperance Movement, especially in Tennessee. It seemed to be pretty hot here at points. The, uh, was it the Tennessee Temperance Alliance in 1885 was setting out to try to get the state into full prohibition by that time, but couldn't do it. So they decided just to go county by county. And with that situation, what was going on here in Moore County? Was there concern about what was gonna be coming down the road? Or did Moore County kinda hold out for a long period of time before they got sucked into the prohibition fervor?

Nelson (00:22:16):
Well, the, the laws were changing throughout Tennessee. Um, you know, that, that movement, you're right. Interestingly enough, this is August of, uh, 2020 and we're celebrating in Tennessee. In fact, yesterday was the hundredth anniversary of the signing of, um, or the ratifying in Tennessee of the 19th Amendment, which allowed women the vote. Right. And the suffragette movement and the prohibition movement were entwined. Uh, the prohibition movement largely, uh, was a, a woman's movement because of what overindulgence was doing to, you know, the productivity of a family. The, the ability to bring home a check, uh, with, um, you know, the rate of keeping a family together over consumption of alcohol really exacerbated those kinds of problems. And so the Suffragist and the Prohibition movement were were locked step. Um, and so they have success with, um, you know, changing the laws and we go through prohibition. And so, you know, the vote for women, uh, comes next. But, uh, here in here in Moore County, it was, it was facing the same things the rest of Tennessee were, was there were different kinds of laws that, you know, would, um, say within a, you couldn't make whiskey or so whiskey within so certain location of a school. Right. Right. It's those kind of laws that a

Drew (00:23:51):
Little chip away at it tip away.

Nelson (00:23:52):
Yeah. Over time. And so it's not until a famous gun battle in the streets of, uh, Nashville that it tips the scale.

Drew (00:24:02):
So let's set that story up because it's very interesting. It involves a US senator who became a newspaper man and another newspaper man, and a lot of tension in the air over this idea of wet counties, dry counties, and which way Tennessee was going to go.

Nelson (00:24:20):
Yeah. Uh, you're talking of course of Duncan Cooper and, uh, Edward Carmack, Uh, both newspaper people, also, both politicians, uh, Carmack will be a politician. And he's on the dry side of the aisle. And Duncan, uh, will be on the wet side of the aisle, politician and, uh, a competing newspaper person as well. So they have both those things going on. And, you know, Carmack Edward Carmack has been mentioning, um, Duncan Cooper in his, uh, editorials mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he's been calling him out. Yeah. And Cooper just essentially tells him, Look, there's gonna be trouble if you mention my name one more time in your newspaper. Well, Carmack does. And so, uh, it's in November of, I believe, 1908, November of 1908. Uh, interestingly enough, the Hermitage Hotel, which will play such an important part in the suffrage jet movement, that's where both the anti and pro, uh, suffrage, uh, delegations will house themselves.

(00:25:32):
It's right near the Capitol. So apparently, um, you know, the Coopers are kind of looking as men will do. Duncan Cooper's there with his son Robin Cooper, and they're kind of looking at the construction of this hotel. And lo and behold, Duncan looks up the road and sees just a block away. There's Edward Carmack and, um, you know, they've had this exchange. If you print my name one more time, Well, he is printed his name. So Duncan Cooper charges up the hill Robin, his son is a little behind him. There's another gentleman that's also making this walk with them. And, uh, there's a, a Mrs. Charles Eastman, and she's important. She's up where, um, where Edward Carmack is standing, and she'll provide a lot of the blow by blow that will come out in the murder trial. So, um, you know, Duncan Cooper says that, uh, Edward Carmack's kind of a coward because he is standing behind a woman, you know, she just happened to be there. So, uh, Carmack comes out and allegedly, uh, shoots the first shots.

Drew (00:26:45):
Okay.

Nelson (00:26:46):
Uh, he will fire three times and Robin Cooper will return the fire. The son of Duncan Cooper will stand in front of his father and return the fire with two shots. He,

Drew (00:26:57):
He actually got hit, correct? Yes. Yes.

Nelson (00:26:59):
Robin Cooper apparently shielding his father will get hit from CarMax fire, but CarMax, uh, will get hit and die, even though he fires the first shot, he becomes the martyr. Mm. And, um, even before the trial is done, uh, the legislators have kind of, uh, teamed up and they've decided, you know, this is such a public act. Uh, one interesting thing is that, um, you know, CarMax, uh, editor at the 10, What will become the Tian today. Yeah. And, um, that was a struggling paper. Well, it, it becomes an important paper survives to this day,

Drew (00:27:43):
Whereas the competitive papers disappeared. Disappeared,

Nelson (00:27:46):
Yeah. Disappeared. So, um, you know, that that gun battle did a little bit for the fortunes of the Tennesseean, but not so much the editor. So the editor is gunned down. Um, the legislature will decide we need to go dry. Malcolm Patterson, who's a friend of the Coopers also wet.

Drew (00:28:08):
He, he, he was actually the guy that beat, uh, Car Carmack in the primary Right. Just earlier.

Nelson (00:28:14):
And Carmack was dry and Patterson was wet. You know, most politicians are gonna be wet just because of the tax revenue, uh, that that whiskey will generate. But Malcolm Patterson Vetos, um, this move to make the state dry, but there's enough legislative, uh, they're, they're able to overturn that veto and the state goes dry. And interestingly enough, we have a speakeasy in Nashville that's called the Patterson House, named after the governor who vetoed that boat, but then was over, you know, the, the legislatures, they totally overturned his veto and the state goes dry. So he's gunn down the state, goes dry. Um, interestingly enough, because he was a member, a former both state senator and state, uh, congressman, um, the legislature also have a statue erected to Edward Carmack that stood, uh, until just, I believe, uh, I'm not sure exactly when it was taken down, was taken down this year during the, uh, George Floyd protest.

Drew (00:29:29):
Yeah. Yeah. And it was, he, as I understand it, Carmack was kind of a prickly character. He was,

Nelson (00:29:38):
He was. And there was definitely, he had really, uh, been responsible Ida B Wells. Ida b Wells is important in the suffrage movement, but she's important in the Civil rights movement as well. Uh, she has a, a newspaper in Memphis and, um, really does what he can to put her out of business. And so he has some, you know, racial background that would cause people to go, Let's take this statue down. Right. And it was, uh, it was torn down. It wasn't, uh, didn't go through any, you know, of the legal process for doing that, but it was torn down in its remained down. Um, but that kind of comes full circle on some of that story.

Drew (00:30:22):
It's interesting that Jack Daniel died the year that Tennessee went into prohibition.

Nelson (00:30:29):
Well, they'll actually go the gun battle's in 1908. It doesn't go dry until 1909.

Drew (00:30:34):
Right.

Nelson (00:30:34):
And so Jack, well, Jack, he will die in, uh, 1911.

Drew (00:30:41):
1911. You're right. And then, um,

Nelson (00:30:43):
But he gives up control of his distillery in 1907.

Drew (00:30:48):
And so that was something that I wanted to ask about because we, any of us that have done the tour have seen the safe. Yep. And the whole story behind Jack Daniels comes in one morning, he's forgotten the combination of the safe one more time. He kicks it, he gets gang green or complications from this toe injury that he has, and he dies. So we get the impression that he just died right away. But he, he didn't actually, he lived quite a few years after.

Nelson (00:31:21):
That's right. That's right. And in fact, I think in his death certificate, it, it may say that it was the result of the surgery that killed him. One of his many surgeries. Yeah. And yes, he'll kick the, he'll kick the safe and I believe 1906. And in 1907 he'll deed his distillery over to Lamb and another nephew, Lamont Lo and Dick Daniel. Well, he'll do that because he can no longer perform as, uh, being in charge of the distillery. He can't do that anymore because he's pretty much laid up. Um, he will kick the safe and break his big toe and not really do anything about it. I'm not sure anything could have been done about it. But along the way, he'll get some kind of infection and blood poisoning from Gang Green. Well, the way to take care of it is they amputate the toe. Well it's spreading. Mm. So a series of three operations. And by the end of this, they've taken off his entire leg. And he is totally bedridden at that point. And then he will finally succumb and die in 1911. All of this comes originally from kicking the safe. It, but it wasn't, the death wasn't instantaneous. Right.

Drew (00:32:39):
It took some time.

Nelson (00:32:39):
It took some time. It was the result really of the spread of the ganging and probably the surgeries overcoming or recuperating from, you know, those serious, serious surgeries at a time when, uh, healthcare was not at its finest. We'll put it that way.

Drew (00:32:58):
So where was Jack Daniels in terms of its popularity at the turn of the century then? Was it, I mean, we take for granted now that it's a worldwide brand that is recognized and any corner of the planet you go to. But where was it at around turn of century? You know,

Nelson (00:33:16):
In 1896 when they write that Nashville American story, they're calling it the finest whiskey in Tennessee. Uh, in Jack's Day, it would not have been the biggest, uh, whiskey being produced in the state of Tennessee. Uh, but it's a very popular whiskey. And one of the reasons it's no bigger than it is in Jack's day is he refuses to me to mash more than 99 bushels a day and says it's because if he mashes more a day, he'll have to have another government man on the property <laugh>. And he's not a big fan of that. Yeah. So he caps it, he's the wealthiest man in the area. He has a mansion with an upstairs ballroom by all reports. He will buy the very first motor car in the county. Um, and so Jack's living a really good life. And so he just caps it at 99 Bushels. It's Lamb who really propels, um, Jack Daniels. Uh, but even in Lamb's Day, it was nothing more, cuz most of, most of lamb's time period making whiskey was during prohibition and he wasn't making whiskey. Yeah, yeah. Uh, the distillery was shut down at this location for something like 29 years. And so Lamb doesn't really have much time to make whiskey before he'll pass away in 1947.

Drew (00:34:37):
So he moved the distillery at one point. Was this, he moved it to St. Louis when he moved it to St. Louis. About what time period was that, Was that immediately after Tennessee went into prohibition?

Nelson (00:34:50):
Yes. He'll move to St. Louis. He'll build a distillery there. Um, in fact, you can find some old bottles that will say St. Louis on them. Um, I know there's some old Bell of Lincoln bottles that say St. Louis on them. Um, so anyhow, he'll move the distillery to St. Louis. He'll have a fire in St. Louis. Okay. Now, he's also operating a distillery and he'll move a lot of this operation. But he's got a brother in Alabama named Spoon Malo Frank, like I told you, everyone's got a name

Drew (00:35:23):
<laugh>. Right.

Nelson (00:35:23):
Frank Spoon. Malo uh, he'll, he'll move down there after the distillery burns and then Alabama will go dry. So he'll go back to St. Louis. Yeah. Then when National Prohibition kicks in, he'll totally get outta distilling.

Drew (00:35:40):
He, he was selling harnesses or something like that wasn't

Nelson (00:35:43):
Oh, he'll do several things. Yeah. So he comes back to Tennessee and even while he's operating in St. Louis, he's on the train back and forth between Tennessee and St. Louis. So he'll come back to, uh, Tennessee and he'll raise Tennessee walking horses. He'll sell mules. He will, uh, he's got a big farm that he'll sell produce. He will, um, also have a hardware store on the square. He'll do all of these things just to keep, And he does it under the name Jack Daniel. His company name

Drew (00:36:21):
Remains never changed.

Nelson (00:36:22):
Jack Daniel Lamont Lo proprietor. Yes. This is really important cuz when we, when the, when the country comes out of prohibition in 1933, Tennessee stays dry. It, it doesn't go wet. And so when the country comes out of prohibition in 1933, Lamb can't get started again. So he'll run for office, go to the State House as a legislator and introduce legislation that will allow the people of Moore County to vote whether they wanna be wet or dry, whether they want the distillery to open. Yeah. So Moore County will vote because they want the jobs. They'll vote the distillery open, they won't vote the county dry. And so when he starts back in operation in 1938, and interestingly enough, the barrels that you see on that wall that are, uh, just the ends of the barrels, those are the first barrels, uh, that were put into storage or into the barrel house back in November of 38. Wow. When Lamont Lo gets back into making whiskey. But when he doesn't open up in 33, there's a New York company that starts using the name Jack Daniel Ah Lamb is able to fight them in court and win because he has never stopped using the name. And we we're awfully glad

Drew (00:37:49):
For foresight Yeah. To do that. Yeah. So, hearing the story about prohibition and, uh, I'm well aware of what was happening in Kentucky with that. Now this is happening in Tennessee 10 years earlier, what happened to all the whiskey that was here? Were, were they still allowed to sell it out of state at that point? Or how did they get rid of the surplus whiskey that they now had aging?

Nelson (00:38:16):
There's a, there's a couple of things that happened. So, um, you know, we had a distributor here in town or in Nashville. The distribution for Jack Daniels came out of Nashville. They moved to Kentucky and no, they moved to Indiana, Evansville, Indiana. And so, um, some of the sales went out of this, the state, when we go dry in this state in St. Louis in 1919, um, when the country is going through the beginnings of what will be Prohibition and Lamont Lo will come, he will sell his whiskey stock. He may have kept some for personal use, but he will sell his whiskey stock. He has a warehouse in St. Louis that he will sell. Um, so he lets go of his whiskey stocks. Yeah. Okay. He's not continuing during prohibition. Yeah.

Drew (00:39:14):
If

Nelson (00:39:15):
You're seeing any Jack Daniels after, um, US Prohibition, it may be something that's being sold by somebody who bought those stocks. Right. But Lamb Malo will get out of the whiskey business.

Drew (00:39:28):
Okay. Yeah. Cuz I know a lot of times it was either sell it off to somebody who had medicinal licenses, but you've never seen a medicinal bottle of Jack Daniels?

Nelson (00:39:36):
Uh, no. Not, not from post-prohibition to my knowledge. I think, um, there was some licensing that was going on to, uh, I mean, you can find a bottle of Jack Daniels, but I think this is coming the time period between 33 and 38, um, out of Claremont, Kentucky

Drew (00:40:00):
<laugh>,

Nelson (00:40:00):
That's, it's Jack Daniels.

Drew (00:40:03):
Interesting. So Jim Beam was,

Nelson (00:40:05):
I think there was a licensing of the name that was going on then, uh, when Lamb was trying to get back into business, but wasn't making the whiskey. But that's a short time period if you find that label. Yeah. It's extremely, extremely rare. That

Drew (00:40:20):
Would be cool to see.

Nelson (00:40:20):
Yes. You know, the, the marriage of the two, uh, big, uh, whiskey makers in America right there.

Drew (00:40:27):
Well, your, your close, um, proximity competition here. Of course, George Hickle went to Louisville to the Shiverly plant up there. And so it, it's interesting to see then it ended up at where Buffalo Trace is at now. So you can see it as a Kentucky whiskey rather than as a, as a Tennessee whiskey. But bringing that full circle back to after Lamb Motlow passed away, and I'm supposing the family, the Motlow family was still holding on to the distillery at the time. Chinley came along Yep. And was interested in buying Jack Daniels. Was that a, a friendly ask we'd like to buy you? Or was that kind of a, a push, uh, to do? So

Nelson (00:41:14):
Chinley had come along and they had tried to buy Jack Daniels, uh, more than once. Uh, but 1956, um, the Motlow brothers were getting older back in that day. There, there was, there were no male heirs. And back that day, you, it wasn't thought, Well, we can continue on in the distilling Bri business with a female ear. It just, it wasn't part of what, uh, the conversation was in that day. Today it would be an entirely different story and we'd be glad of it. But <laugh> in 56 that was going on. So the Ma Lows were wanting to, to make sure that that Jack Daniels continued. Um, there was also, you know, the bank owned part of the business, so there may have been some monetary pressure there. And they had several offers. In fact, the offer that comes from Chinley is bigger than the offer that they get from Brown Foreman. But the Browns in Louisville, Kentucky, it's a family control business. Were more of the same mind and spirit and attitude, uh, than the Schley's of New York. Yeah. You know, that business in New York City, entirely different thing. So because of that, um, the Malos will sell to Brown Foreman in 1956.

Drew (00:42:36):
And interesting that it was during that same time period that George Dickel came back in because Chinley wanted to, They're like, Well we didn't get this from Jack Daniels, so we'll just compete with him.

Nelson (00:42:48):
That's exactly, um, you know, there's a real nice, you have to travel to St. Louis and to Alabama and stay with the Malo family. But there's still a straight line from the beginning to today with Jack Daniels. Not so much with Dickel. I mean, it comes back in 1956,

Drew (00:43:09):
But it gone how you said Yes,

Nelson (00:43:12):
It been gone for a long time and it comes back really as a way to compete with Jack Daniels.

Drew (00:43:18):
Yeah. Very interesting. So now that we've gotten into modern times, the, the one thing that I remember about Jack Daniels is that when it was Sinatra's favorite whiskey, it was at 90 proof and there was a green label mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I believe the green label was at 80 proof.

Nelson (00:43:42):
Well, you know, interestingly enough, uh, Yeah. You know, Jack Daniels was 90 proof, but it wasn't 90 proof everywhere.

Drew (00:43:52):
Okay.

Nelson (00:43:52):
You know, outside the US it might be a lower proof. Yeah. There were different proofs. Uh, in Canada it was ad proof. Uh, so it was 90 proof in the US Yeah. But it was different proof around the

Drew (00:44:06):
World. Was it sold at different proofs earlier on with what Jack Daniels was making. And I always putting an s on the end of his name when I say his name, cuz I'm

Nelson (00:44:15):
So used to it. Yeah. It's so easy to Jack Daniel. And I probably do too. Yeah. His name is Jack Daniel. The distillery, a lot of people get this wrong, is the Jack Daniel distillery. Uh, the product itself is Jack Daniel Apostrophes. So Yeah. A lot of people say Jack Daniels when the referring to the man.

Drew (00:44:32):
Yeah. So, um, was it sold at different proofs earlier? The

Nelson (00:44:37):
Jacks Day? Yeah. We don't entirely know all the time what proof he was selling it. I mean, he sold many different labels. He probably had as many labels as we have today back in Jack and Lis day. Um, it, it did, we know he had a bottled in bond, so that would be a hundred proof. Um, and N 90 proof was pretty much the standard as it traveled around the world, uh, to be competitive with other whiskeys, which were 80 proof. It was at 80 proof in some cases. Uh, local laws mandated a proof. And so when we went to ad proof in large, it was essentially a way to have a consistent proof around the world.

Drew (00:45:22):
Okay. Was there was a little backlash about that though at one point. Wasn't there, there

Nelson (00:45:26):
There was some backlash, but the fact that we have Jack Daniels at 94 Proof and at other proofs, um, I think that allows people who are looking for a higher proof product to enjoy Jack Daniels at 94 Proof. You can buy single barrel if you want the purest form of Jack Daniels, that would be, uh, Jack Daniels single barrel at barrel proof. Right. I mean, it is filtered to get some of the char that was in the barrel out. Yeah. But it's what the proof that it came out of the barrel. So you can find barrel proof whiskey at, you know, 127 or 132 or 131. It's what, however, it's the proof it came out of the barrel. So that's really the purest expression of Jack Daniels. There is.

Drew (00:46:17):
And so about what time did all of a sudden this explosion of different types of, of Jack Daniels start to evolve? I know there's a, I remember somebody coming into the office I was working in at the time and bringing in Tennessee Honey and I, I'd never heard of a flavored whiskey at that time.

Nelson (00:46:37):
There's a lot of things that are going on. So in 1980, up until 1980, um, you know, you mentioned Frank Sinatra when Frank discovered Jack Daniels other than Jack Daniel himself, um, Frank Sinatra has done more to grow the brand than any single person outside of, of Jack in working with Nearest. Um, when, when Sinatra discovers it and starts talking about it from the stage, all of a sudden our sales go to, Okay, um, we can make enough whiskey to sales our a hundred percent over what we can make now, this happens in the 1960s. Mm. You can't immediately catch up

Drew (00:47:25):
Right.

Nelson (00:47:26):
To that kind of event. You

Drew (00:47:27):
Gotta age your whiskey.

Nelson (00:47:28):
Yeah. You gotta continue to mature it. Uh, Jack Daniel starts running ads that say this, We would rather ask for your patience than your forgiveness. Mm. That was the headline. Mm. And what they meant was, we're not gonna change the way we make it. So you're gonna have to be patient, but we'd rather have you do that than have to ask for your forgiveness. Cuz we'd cut corners and messed it up. Right. They don't cut corners. Uh, Frank Bobo, who will be master distiller back in those times, uh, before he passed away, we would have many conversations in which you'd say, Did they change anything? He said, Well, we changed the footprint. We put in a lot more fermenters and a lot more charcoal mellowing vats. And we put in additional spills. But we never changed the way it was made. The quality of the corn remained the same, all of that.

(00:48:17):
And so, um, we go from the late 1950s, early sixties till almost 1980 in allocation. I mean, it was the Pappy Van Winkle in allocation today. Yep. And that's, you know, that people might argue that is a contrived, um, this was not contrived. We were just trying to keep up. Right. Uh, from those early days to almost 1980. So in 1980, all of a sudden we had more whiskey than we'd sold. So we had additional whiskey in the Barrelhouse. So all of a sudden we could start thinking about, well, what else can we do? And so in 1988, Jack Daniels introduces the very first whiskey in more than a century new whiskey. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that's introduced. And that's Jack Daniels gentleman Jack. And the only difference between, uh, Jack Daniels, the black label, old number seven and gentleman Jack, is that it's picked from places in the warehouse where, you know, the very first thing that a whiskey picks up are the suite notes.

(00:49:31):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> from the wood, and then the oak comes after. So there's a little more sweetness to this whiskey. And it's charcoal mellow twice. Once, Right. When it comes off the still, just like old number seven is, then it goes through a second less, less charcoal in, in the second pass. Cause if you put it through the same 10 feet of charcoal, you can strip out all the color. Mm-hmm. And a lot of the flavor, you don't wanna do that. Right. So it's a lighter touch the second time, but it's that light touch that makes it gentlemen jack, uh, very smooth whiskey. Uh, and that was introduced in 1988. So Flass forward to today where we're able to, we continue to grow and add capacity. Uh, there are more people interested in American whiskey and they come from different parts in the spectrum in terms of fishing and nato to just a person dabbling in whiskey for the first time.

(00:50:31):
Because there's so many more people in, uh, the, the whiskey arena and they have very different pallets. It really allows for a lot of different expressions. I mean, today we have a higher proof Jack Daniel than we had back in Sinatra's Day in the 94 proof. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, single barrel. And it's an expression of Jack Daniel's we didn't even have in Sinatra's Day. Um, it is the whiskey from a single barrel up until the introduction of single barrel. Only a master distiller or a distiller could te or a taster could tell you about what single barrel was like. Yeah. It, the public never experienced that tasting individual barrels and realizing each barrel has its own character and taste ranges from very vanilla and, and soft to very oky and, and, uh, a little more challenging. And then <laugh> a lot of places in between. So when we introduced Jack Daniel Single Barrel, all of a sudden the public could now taste the difference from barrel to barrel. Um,

Drew (00:51:49):
The, the one that I'm most envious, uh, of the one that every time I go on a flight somewhere overseas, and I come back and I see it in the duty free, but I can't buy it because I gotta lay over here or there and I only carry a bag with me, is the bottled in bond. The

Nelson (00:52:05):
Bottled in bond. It's, um, as I said, you know, Jack Daniels had a bottle in bond whiskey back when Bottle in Bond was introduced really to protect. It was at a time when people were adding things to whiskey. Um, you weren't entirely sure. It's one of the early food safety acts, um, that takes place. And that's the act that created bottled in bond whiskey. And you knew exactly what you were getting. It was gonna be a hundred proof, it was gonna come from a single source, single distillery, uh, was not gonna move around. And, and you didn't know what you were getting. So we introduced that. And right now it's only available, as you say, travel retail. You can get it, you know, duty free shops around the world. Uh, you will eventually see that come to the us. Sinatra at one time was only available, It was introduced at at Can for our travel retail. And uh, about a year later, it made it to us retail of the same was true of, uh, Jack Daniel's Tennessee Gold that was available in China was available in travel retail today. You, you can, you can find, you know, the, uh, Jack Daniels Tennessee Gold.

Drew (00:53:20):
There is Hope. Yes.

Nelson (00:53:22):
There's

Drew (00:53:22):
Hope, but

Nelson (00:53:23):
A very, very good whiskey.

Drew (00:53:24):
Yeah. So did, uh, did Sinatra ever try Gentleman Jack? Or did, was he very loyal to old number seven?

Nelson (00:53:33):
He was very loyal to old number seven. He did receive, uh, you know, Gentleman Jack when it was introduced, but he was extremely loyal to Jack Daniel's old number seven. You know, we never, this is in the days he was maybe the original influencer for us. Um, because you have to think about it, back in Sinatra's day, we didn't have all this different types of media. What we did have was television. Well, he was on television. We did have, you know, Las Vegas, Well, he was big in Las Vegas. He was big in the radio, uh, who was big in recording.

Drew (00:54:07):
He was making movies.

Nelson (00:54:08):
He was making movies. So in every available media of the day, Sinatra was not just in it, but he was big in wherever he appeared. And on the stage, he would talk about Jack Daniels and he would say, This is the nectar of the Gods

Drew (00:54:25):
<laugh>. And

Nelson (00:54:26):
That's something you really couldn't buy. Right. Uh, there was even one year, late, late in his career when a competing distillery company got to his management and signed Sinatra up for a year to represent their whiskey. Well, when this happened, a gentleman by the name of Julie called, uh, Angelo Lu Casey, he was the person, a salesman dedicated to making sure Frank had his whiskey. He gets a call from Jill and Julie says, Angelo the chairman, being Frank, the chairman wants me to tell you a leopard doesn't change its spots

Drew (00:55:08):
<laugh>.

Nelson (00:55:08):
And by that, um, by that Angelo was to take, even though he had to talk about another whiskey from the stage, it was Jack Daniels in his class.

Drew (00:55:19):
Wow.

Nelson (00:55:19):
Jack Frank apparently was never happy about that particular contract. And as soon as he was able to break it, he did, you know, he would live, he was a man of his word and he would do, uh, what he would live by a contract. But he was, he was always drinking Jack Daniels. And that comes from Sinatra himself. So,

Drew (00:55:40):
And he's buried with a bottle of it. He

Nelson (00:55:42):
Is buried with a bottle of Jack Daniels, uh, a pack of camels, a bottle of Jack Daniels and a roll of dimes, uh, <laugh>.

Drew (00:55:51):
We

Nelson (00:55:52):
Know that's true because Angelo Lu Casey, Yeah. His personal, uh, salesperson making sure he had whiskey. Cuz you gotta remember, it was hard to get Jack Daniels and Sinatra was traveling the world and he wanted to have Jack Daniels wherever he went. So on his private plane, Angelo was responsible for making sure wherever he went, there was whiskey if he was going out of the country, that the whiskey was traveling with him. And so it traveled with him even when he left this life. Uh, and Angelo was seated with the, the family and saw the bottle being, uh, given to Frank. Wow. Uh, in that, in that final moment.

Drew (00:56:30):
So do you know what the dimes were for?

Nelson (00:56:32):
You know, there's a lot of controversy surrounding what were the dimes for? Uh, I, I kinda like the story that it was calling his friends. Now you gotta remember, uh, Sinatra as head of the Second Rat Pack, most people forget that the first rat pack was Humphrey Bogarts. And Humphrey Bogart was a huge fan of Jack Daniels and so was Lauren Bal. Mm. Lauren Bal was the first T female Tennessee Squire. And it's because she was such a loyal fan of, uh, Jack Daniels. And she gives the rat pack it's name, she calls 'em a lousy pack of rats. And it's stuck, you know. And so Bogart will introduce, uh, Sinatra to the Rat Pack. Uh, it's, it's great that Jack Daniels was a part of the original rap pack and will remain, uh, part of the rap pack, um, under Frank Sinatra. Yeah. But it's a kind of a, the rap pack was kind of this roving cocktail party <laugh> after the concert was over. You know, Sinatra would stay up late into his night and he would call friends to come be a part of the party. This is before cell phones. And so a dime at the time is what you needed to have to call your friends

(00:57:49):
<laugh>. So the story that I must fond of says that he has the role of dimes, so he continued to call his friends.

Drew (00:57:56):
Nice. Yeah, that's the one I've heard too. That's, uh, and I'm thinking he didn't take inflation into account or cell phones. Yeah. <laugh>,

Nelson (00:58:05):
Maybe there's even better means of communication, you know?

Drew (00:58:08):
Yeah, Yeah. Uh, you brought up one other thing too that I had just recently heard of that I, I didn't know about, which is the Tennessee Squires. How did that come about and, and describe what that is?

Nelson (00:58:20):
Sure. The Tennessee Squire uh, Association is a program that was introduced, uh, because of allocation back in the 1950s. It is introduced as a loyalty program. And what happened was in 1950s when you couldn't get Jack Daniels in the late fifties, um, they institute this program in which they're keeping their loyal customers informed of, You know, as we move to another state, we have more allocation, We'll let our friends know it's available and to reward them for their loyalty. We couldn't give 'em whiskey because there wasn't enough, but we could give 'em one square At the Origins, it was one square foot, it became one square inch

Drew (00:59:06):
<laugh>

Nelson (00:59:06):
Over time. Yeah. With the number of fans that we have. So if you were a loyal drinker of Jack Daniels, you were given a deed to one square inch of property here in the Jack Daniels Hollow <laugh>. And a property owner is known as a Squire. Okay. A Squire is a title that's all about land ownership. So you became a Tennessee Squire. LBJ was a Tennessee Squire. Uh, we got a call from the, uh, Russian Embassy, or from the Russians at one point asking, um, one of the premieres, one of the heads of Russia had died Uhhuh. And they were calling to see what this one square inch of property

Drew (00:59:48):
Was worth was worth. Nice.

Nelson (00:59:51):
Lauren Baka was a Tennessee Squire. Um, so we continue that program today, unlike many loyalty programs, it's not about if you're a loyal Tennessee Squire, we're gonna give you certain things. It's not about selling whiskey. Yeah.

Drew (01:00:06):
Yeah. It's

Nelson (01:00:06):
Always been about friendship. It was about keeping people from being frustrated cuz they couldn't find Jack Daniels. Yeah. So we're gonna stay in contact with them. And so you'll receive letters once in year, you'll receive a calendar, but it's more about relationship and less about inducements or

Drew (01:00:23):
The, the letters are actually kind of funny. One of the ones, uh, that I saw was, uh, something about, uh, a cow mishap that happened on, on the property.

Nelson (01:00:32):
Yeah. We might have a cow, uh, might break out of a fence and come and be on your property. You might have taxes assessed on your property. Yeah. And get a letter from the tax assessor about that. Um, but yeah, there's, it's a lot of fun. It's good natured. It's about friendship, you know, really. Um, we talked about Frank Sinatra, we talked about Nearest and Jack. There's a whole, this story of friendship is woven throughout this brand. Uh, going back to the days of Jack, you know, it's, it's kind of, people will kind of look at you as scans when you say Nearest and Jack were friends because of the time period and of the situation. Um, but that's something, you know, Fawn Weaver who's helped do. She's, she has really poured herself and put plenty of resources against the res. Uh, there's some things that happened to lead us to believe it was more than just a mentorship.

(01:01:33):
There a couple of things. Nearest was a big fan of music. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he was a fiddle player and he would often, uh, play the fiddle and Dan call would call, um, the dance. Yeah. You know, in square dance kind of thing. Jack Daniels would become a huge fan of music. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he'll have an upstairs ballroom. Yep. He'll outfit a band. Music has always been important part of Jack Daniels. That might have been something he learned from Nearest along with whiskey making. Uh, Nearest was quite a storyteller. It said Jack was a big storyteller. Mm. And still to this day, it's the stories around Jack Nearest Lynchburg about, uh, how the whiskeys made. What does Old Number seven stand for? It's a, it's a brand built on storytelling. Goes back to Jack May even go back to Nearest, um, nearest children. One generation from their father being an enslaved man at the Diane called Farm.

(01:02:36):
Um, their children who, who worked nearest children. Uh, Eli in, in, um, George who worked at the Nearest Green, will become some of the biggest property owners in Lynchburg. Mm. Becomes a very prosperous family. And when Lamb takes the distillery to St. Louis, who'll take some of the greens with him. And only in this modern time will those two parts of the family be reintroduced. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, Fawn Weaver will contact as she's, uh, researching Nearest Green will find members of the family in St. Louis and reconnect, uh, the Tennessee family and the Missouri family. Wow. It's, it's part of the work that she's done, uh, with her product. Uncle Nearest premium whiskey. Yeah. And the Uncle Nearest distillery.

Drew (01:03:29):
Nice. So let's answer that question as best we possibly can. What does Old Number seven stand for?

Nelson (01:03:37):
Wow.

Drew (01:03:38):
Beyond the, uh, you know, beyond the friendship side of things, where, where did the term old number seven originate from?

Nelson (01:03:47):
Well, I mean, if you read uh, the Jack Daniels legacy book, You'll learn that family had told the story that Jack had a friend who he really admired, who had seven pharmacies. Well, it would make sense that Jack had a friend who was a pharmacist because they would've sold whiskey back in the day. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So this friend had seven pharmacies, and so Jack like that number seven. And that's what, that's one story.

Drew (01:04:17):
Yeah. We've

Nelson (01:04:18):
Heard, we've heard that he had seven Jack never married, but we have loved letters and we know he had girlfriends. Yeah. Uh, some people say, Well, his seventh girlfriend was his favorite. Well, that would explain why Jack never married, cuz if you called a whiskey named after your favorite girlfriend, old number seven, <laugh>, you're probably not gonna marry. Yeah. Probably not. I have some people who said it was seventh Batch. Some people said it was just, you know, Lucky number seven. Uh, there's stories about a train shipping number that was number seven, and someone wanted some more of that old number seven that was shipped to them.

Drew (01:04:55):
I, I had, I had heard that they were gonna use seven as the number for the registrar, registration number for the distillery, but they chose something else. But he liked seven, so he stuck with seven

Nelson (01:05:08):
At one point. The distillery is in district number seven, and, um, the gentleman who wrote the only other book about Jack Daniels, I'm aware of Blood and Whiskey, The Life and Times of Jack Daniels, Peter Crass. He will say, without a doubt, it's because of that tax district number. Okay. Is number seven. Well, guess what? Truth of the matter is nobody knows <laugh>

Drew (01:05:35):
Because

Nelson (01:05:36):
Jack never left us any definitive answer to that question. No. And he's not telling anybody. So,

Drew (01:05:44):
So the other piece of this Uncle Nearest story is that you are actually working along with Jack Daniels is working along with Uncle Nearest on a new initiative. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Nelson (01:05:59):
Yeah. There's, uh, something called the Nearest and Jack Advancement Initiative. And it was started here recently, this year. It's, uh, a joint relationship between the Jack Daniel Distillery and the Uncle Nearest distillery in Shelbyville. And they've come together, you know, we really want to advance, uh, more diversity in whiskey making. And part of the thing that allows you to do that is having a ready pool of talent to, uh, rise up in whiskey. Well, the talent's just not there or hasn't been there. Um, and so this initiative is really to take people who are interested in making whiskey African American individuals who may already be part of whiskey making, but advance them into the higher levels of that career. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so in order to really create the pool in interest, um, this, this initiative was started. And so there's, it's really got three parts.

(01:07:01):
One of those parts is just to educate people about distilling. And that's the Uncle Nearest, um, school of dis distilling. That's through Malo College in, interestingly enough, it has the name of Malo because it was the Malow family that donated, um, the property that the head, you know, the main campus sits on. Yeah. Uh, just down the road from here. But it's one of the fastest growing universities in Tennessee. And so they will handle training people how to be distillers. And so the, um, nearest Green School of dis, or the Uncle Nearest School of Distilling that will the nearest green school of distilling, rather that will be the training part of this. Okay. The educational arm where we can give scholarships to people and, and learn how to make whiskey in that way. Then there's another thing that's called the, uh, leadership Acceleration program that's for people, that's for African American individuals that are already in the whiskey making trade, but are looking to be part of leadership positions.

(01:08:15):
Those would be things like a production manager or someone who heads maturation, which is the aging of whiskey, or somebody who might wanna be a head distiller. So we'll take people, um, and provide them with opportunities and, and we're, we're picking two individuals right at this very moment to give them additional opportunities where they can learn these different roles and ultimately be advanced to those kinds of positions. And then there's finally, it's called the, uh, Business Incubation program. And that's where we're finding people who are already out there mm-hmm. <affirmative>, African Americans who are already out making whiskey, and it's a mentorship program. And those that receive this mentorship will learn about all aspects. They may have a small craft distillery, but they can learn more about distribution, they can learn more about the business of marketing their whiskey, about creating new products. And, um, together, Uncle Nearest and Jack Daniels have contributed $5 million to fund this program and to get it off the ground to provide these, uh, you know, people that wanna learn who are already in the whiskey making business and want to learn more, providing seed funds and, and offering them scholarships, apprenticeships that will allow them to advance and really create, we think all of distilling is gonna really benefit not just Jack Daniels, Uncle Nearest, but all of distilling because of the lack of diversity, um, the lack of folks out there that can be a part of so many great operations.

(01:10:08):
And so that's the beginning of all

Drew (01:10:10):
This. It's, and I've seen this with my research on women in the distilling interest it that it's, it's coming at this thing we call whiskey from a completely different angle. It's, people have different experiences with it. People have different thing innovations that they can bring in from their own backgrounds. Yeah. And it's amazing how much whiskey has changed just over the last 25 years because of more women's involvement. So I, it's, it's definitely great to see this, this push to say, let's not just be the same old thing that we've been. Um, yes, there's, there's a place for that, but there's also a place to expand and see where we can take this.

Nelson (01:10:56):
You know, the interesting thing about it is we're almost coming full circle. Um, Nearest Green, who operated the Dan called Distillery as its head distiller now has a distillery just down the road with his name on on it. I think, I think Jack Daniel, the man would be very, very, uh, proud that that happened and that, uh, and then an innovation charcoal mellowing that came from African American slaves. Now here we come back to today and there's a program to bring more diversity into whiskey making that will bring, I believe, additional innovation, like you said, because of diverse backgrounds, looking at whiskey making. So that's kind of coming back full circle too. And it's nice to see that it's a good time for all of this to be happening. Uh, we've got a lot of energy in this country, uh, around diversity and, um, I think it's just a great time to be in the distilling business or to be looking at distilling, uh, as a future if you're a young person.

(01:12:08):
Right. We really appreciate what Fawn Weaver has done, uh, for a number of reasons. I mean, some people would look at this and go, Aren't they a competitor? You, you know, if you look at it from a business standpoint, you might think so, but there's more to be gained, uh, by coming together and doing things like the Nearest and Jack initiative. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's more to be gained by working together. We have a shared history in Nearest Green. Uh, we share that same dna. And then, um, she has brought an entirely different point of view. She's looked at this whole story a different way that's helped open our eyes and educate us. She's, she's willing to share the research that she's done. She's very open and, and we've, we've done that back and forth. Um, we helped share documents with her that helped us to both she first and us next to realize that, um, that near screen was our first master distiller to really recognize that.

(01:13:14):
Um, but that willingness to share, um, to, to look beyond competition and say, you know, both of these distilleries, both of these whiskeys can grow, uh, that the world is big enough and wide enough for two Great Tennessee whiskeys. Right. Um, I think that's been, been enormously helpful for everyone. Uh, it's not been a divisive kind of relationship in a world where these kinds of things can be very divisive. And that's been, that's been really satisfying, I think, for everybody involved. But this photograph, this photograph is really an indication that something was going on, um, back in Jack's day that we really hadn't fully tapped into mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So in the 1990s, the Daniel family has this photograph and they bring it to Jack Daniel and ask us if we're interested in it. And it's, it's the only crew shot. We've got some individual shots of Jack mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but there was no shot of Jack Daniel's crew. And this shot was it, it it was taken probably at the turn of the century, can see some, some gray and jack's, uh, beard. And there's a couple of interesting things about the photograph. First of all, everybody is seated except for maybe some gentleman at the back and Jack mm-hmm. <affirmative> Jack is standing. It lets you know he is really five foot two and he, he's only, I

Drew (01:14:48):
Thought he was sitting. Yeah,

Nelson (01:14:49):
Yeah, yeah. Everyone else is seated, I guess, so that he doesn't look small, but he's standing at five foot two. That's one interesting thing about the photo that Jack's standing in it. The other interesting thing about the photo is the gentleman to Jack in the photograph, he's to Jack's immediately, his left. It's to the right if you look at it, but it's to Jack his left, left Uhhuh to his immediate left, is an African American gentleman. And that would've been highly unusual in the American South at the turn of the century. That would've been unusual to have an African American immediately to your left.

Drew (01:15:27):
And they're not on the edge of the picture. They're right in the center of the

Nelson (01:15:30):
Right, in the center of the photograph. Yeah. Yeah. That's unusual. So who is that guy? When we saw the photograph, you know, that raises, but we didn't know. Yeah.

(01:15:40):
So it takes Fawn Weaver coming along, talking to the Green family to finally get that person identified as one of the sons of nearest screen that's George Green, and he's side by side with Jack Daniels in that photograph and in the center of the photograph. Yeah. Um, so there was a statement being made. And the truth of the matter is, uh, as the Green Family has been interviewed, that, you know, back in the Milo days in those days, uh, what you were paid at the Jack Daniel distillery was determined by your seniority and not by your race. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, you know, that's something we can be proud of and should be proud of, and it's something we honor. And that Fawn honors in the name of Nearest Green and the name of Jack in the Nearest and Jack initiative.

Drew (01:16:35):
I was gonna say, and in the era of a lot of focus on the bad news, it's, it's good to have those shining examples to Yeah. It's

Nelson (01:16:43):
Come from, it's good to have those shining examples, and we hope people will look at it that way. When the story was first introduced, there was some controversy because the word slave was used in the title. But as people delved deeper into the story and really un began to understand the relationship between Nearest and Jack, it really is a, a story of friendship. It's a story of honor, It's a story of, um, you know, it's funny, uh, there's an old timer, at least one old timer, who suggested that the way Nearest got his nickname is because he was always the guy that was closest to Jack

Drew (01:17:23):
<laugh>. Nice.

Nelson (01:17:23):
And that's how he got his nickname. We don't know if that's the truth or not, but we sure do benefit today from the legacy those two men left behind.

Drew (01:17:34):
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much. I, I appreciate all that, uh, you, you've uncovered for us and such, Again, such a rich history here that I know we've only touched on just a, a portion of it. Uh,

Nelson (01:17:47):
You know, in a day and age when there's many new labels that crop up every year and it's a story, There's a, you know, whiskey and stories. Uh, Yeah. I mean, they go hand in hand. Um, and so every time you have a new brand, you have a new story of, it's an old new story usually. Um, but at Jack Daniels, there are more stories than you can imagine that haven't, uh, with 150 plus years of history with the quirkiness of prohibition and being in a dry county today, it's moist. It's moist. You can have a taste at the distillery and you can find some beer being served in town today. So I call it moist and not dry. And actually, if you look, there are, it's three categories now. It's dry, it's moist, <laugh>, and it's, uh, you know, everything's available.

Drew (01:18:41):
It's, Yeah. Um, yeah. So where do you go eat in town?

Nelson (01:18:45):
You know, uh, there are a number of places. It depends on what I want. There's, we're known for barbecue in this town, and so there's a couple of, of, there's one, uh, barbecue place right on the square. There's barbecue place right off the square. They're both really good. Don't wanna show any favoritism here.

Drew (01:19:03):
I hear ya. I hear ya.

Nelson (01:19:04):
We support them all equally because in a town this size Yeah. We're happy to have every restaurant we can get. Yeah. It was, it was funny Years ago, um, at the end of the year, the, the local newspaper does its top 10 stories of the year and, you know, you'd think it'd be about violence and death and destruction and natural disaster. This particular year, I was looking in one of the top 10 stories of the year in Lynchburg was Lynchburg gets its first Chain restaurant.

Drew (01:19:39):
Wow.

Nelson (01:19:39):
That was in the top 10 stories. Wow. And I thought, What is this? I didn't know we got a chain. Yeah. Did I miss that? It was Subway.

Drew (01:19:47):
Oh, we have a

Nelson (01:19:48):
Subway

Drew (01:19:49):
Nice

Nelson (01:19:50):
Sandwich shop. Yeah. Which is great for the distillery. Yeah. Uh, crowd is to, to go into Subway and get in your order.

Drew (01:19:58):
I'm thinking, you know, this large distillery down the street that people come from all over the world to go see that some fast food place would've figured it out long

Nelson (01:20:10):
Ago. Well, subways are national chain, and then we have many, many local establishments. We have Miss Mary Bobos, which, you know, Jack himself would've had a Noonday meal at that restaurant. It was a different name. It was a hotel at the time. Ah, okay. And they served food. It was the Solomon Hotel, and Jack would've had a noon day meal there. Uh, so we've got everything from Miss Mary's b boarding house, uh, to plenty of good barbecue places. We've got a nice coffee shop on the square, and then we do have our national chain, the Subway. Um, one thing else I would, I, I'd love to add, we love our whiskey podcasts. Um, it's great to drew to have have this conversation with you today. And, um, we, we wanna let people know, and, and you're well aware that there's a, a podcast that Jack Daniels does.

Drew (01:21:02):
Oh yeah. That's how I found out about the shootout in Nashville.

Nelson (01:21:06):
It's called Around the Barrel in any place, you know, whether it's iTunes or whatnot that you, uh, download your podcast, you'll find around the barrel there. And so we appreciate you being here and we'll, we'll have to tune in and, and, uh, keep abreast of what you're doing as you're traveling Tennessee and learning about all our, our nice distilleries

Drew (01:21:27):
Here. Well, everywhere I go and I see a bottle of Jack Daniels, I'll remember the conversation and, and, uh, and, and good vibes of the place. So appreciate

Nelson (01:21:36):
That. Well just know that in 170 countries around the world, you can say two words that they'll understand And that's Jack Daniel,

Drew (01:21:45):
The big thank you to Nelson Eddie for spending his time with me and going through the history of Jack Daniels and also sharing some whiskey. And I highly recommend taking that tour. If you're ever in central Tennessee. You can find out more information@jackdaniels.com. For show notes and more about this interview at to whiskey-lord.com/interviews. I'm your host, Drew Hennish. And until next time, cheers and SLO of a Whiskey lores, a production of Travel Fuel's Life, llc.