Ep. 63 - John Campbell Talks Laphroaig Peat to Lowland Whisky at Lochlea

Transcript

Drew (00:00:09):
Welcome to Whiskey Lore, the interviews. I'm your host, Drew Hannush, the Amazon bestselling author of Whiskey Lores Travel Guide to Experiencing Kentucky Bourbon. And it was around the time that I was interviewing Jeff Arnette, the former master distiller of Jack Daniels, about his move from worldwide brand to craft distilling at company distilling that I was caught off guard by the news that another of my favorite distiller was seeing its longtime distiller taking the same path towards craft distilling. So the question's gotta be asked, what is going on in the industry that is encouraging distillers to stretch their wings in new surroundings? Well, who better to ask than the people who are making the move themselves? And so I'm honored to have as my guest today, John Campbell, formerly of La Freud, and now in the lowlands helping to bring four year old distillery Loch Lee to your attention.

(00:01:08):
So over the next hour, I'm going to give you the opportunity to learn not only about Loch Lee and what John and his team are creating on a farm that was once worked by Robert Burns, but I'm also going to introduce you to John the man and find out more about his path to distilling his experiences at Lare and finding out what prompted him to take this step into a new role in the distillery that is just releasing its first whiskey in the US in May and is already over in the UK and Europe in limited supply. So let's not waste another moment and jump right into my conversation with production director John Campbell of Lock Lee, 27 years. He was at LA fro in 16 years of those as distillery manager and his name is John Campbell. He is now taking on a new challenge, moving from one region of Scotland to another region of Scotland and moving from a large corporate distillery to a independent startup craft distillery. And so we've got lots to talk about cuz they're just releasing their first whiskeys now. And so wanna welcome to the show John Campbell. John welcome.

John (00:02:23):
Hi Drew. How you doing?

Drew (00:02:25):
It's, it's nice to meet you. I saw you just weeks ago on YouTube saying goodbye to everybody from La Freud and I thought, wow, I wonder how long it'll be before we see him again. And here you are, you've already got product going out at the new distillery you're at.

John (00:02:43):
Yeah, no, it was quick and I didn't stop in between at all. I just went from Lare to locally and basically over the weekend. So <laugh>, it's been a busy period,

Drew (00:02:58):
I'm guessing you're still settling in a little bit.

John (00:03:01):
It doesn't feel that way actually. It feels, it's been easy. It's, the team here is really good. They've made me feel so welcome putting up on my crazy ideas so far, so <laugh>. All good, all good.

Drew (00:03:17):
Awesome. Yeah, I wanna jump into some of those crazy ideas. So we're going to talk a little bit about the new distillery coming up in a little bit, but I want to jump back into your past and talk a little bit about where you came from and your time at Lare and then the transition over here to Lalia. So as I understand it, your first job was not in the whiskey industry, but you actually were a lobster fisherman.

John (00:03:47):
Yeah, no, that's correct. That's a long time ago now. Yeah, just over 30 year ago. Yeah. So left school went lobster fishing.

Drew (00:03:57):
So how long did you do that?

John (00:04:00):
Oh, good question. Till I was about six years.

Drew (00:04:03):
Okay, okay. Very good. Were you just around ILA or were you going out further?

John (00:04:08):
Generally I would work when you would do lobster most of the year round, but you would do crab as well in the summer and it was further offshore and then you would go into Ireland every second night. So between Ayla and Ireland. Okay. And it's not that far, but if it sounds far, yeah, but it's not, it's only 26 miles south of Ayla, Ireland. So we would stay in Ireland one night and then back to Ayla the next,

Drew (00:04:35):
I was going to say from the Bay at Lare you can see Ireland, can't you?

John (00:04:40):
That's too, that's true. Yep. Yep. You can, yeah, can see

Drew (00:04:43):
<laugh> on a sunny day.

John (00:04:46):
Yeah, no, you can see the binocular of Glen at Bush

Drew (00:04:48):
Mills. Oh, very nice. Yeah, very nice. Keep keeping an eye on the competition.

John (00:04:53):
Oh, it's always good. They make good whiskey too, so you want keep find out what they're up to. So we've got the binoculars on them too, or we did half you

Drew (00:05:01):
<laugh>. Very nice. So how did you end up working at Laro? You are an Isla man, right? You spent your entire life on Isla.

John (00:05:12):
That's true. Yeah, no, I'm from Porten, which is one and a half miles from Laro and yeah, no, basically lobster fisherman who was really happy and quite well off considering as well. You can made lots of money in the summer lobster and crab, but I needed a mortgage and the bank manager wouldn't give me a mortgage because I was so decided, well maybe you have to go into Ella. And so started looking around thought, look, Roy's always been there, the busiest and it's the biggest brand in the island. I'll try and get a job in there just to, I'm going to go for security, let's go for proper security. So knocking the door a few times, then eventually got in and started off basically pin the numbers in the barrels and had a waged cup up more than half. So I was miserable for a week while, so it was not the best and a couple of people convinced me to stay and that was so I'm glad a lesson.

Drew (00:06:32):
Yeah. So doing that kind of work at that time, did you ever see yourself getting all the way up to distillery manager?

John (00:06:43):
No. You don't. I guess at that age I didn't have a plan at that age. I guess I was just, apart from that, I wanted property and I wanted a just to start kind of building foundations, I guess a bet that way. So that was the only drive I had and to have fun. I think that's what you do in your twenties. Thanks.

Drew (00:07:12):
I would say the difficulty is that a job lare distillery managers don't flip over very often. I mean, we're talking usually 15, 20, 25 years in that position.

John (00:07:26):
Yeah, no, it depends. I became the longest seven manager, but the guy before that was two years, and then the person before that was 13 years. So there haven't been that many distillery managers on the floor accessory. It's only been about maybe seven or eight. Yeah. And a new one now, so that's cool.

Drew (00:07:50):
Yeah. And was he your assistant?

John (00:07:52):
Yes. So that's really good news.

Drew (00:07:54):
Yeah,

John (00:07:55):
I was for Barry. Yep.

Drew (00:07:56):
When you became assistant distiller, was that under Ian Henderson or was that under Robin Shields? Yes. Was that,

John (00:08:04):
No Ian Henderson. And it was when another <inaudible> legend, Mickey Heads left Lare and went to go to Jira, which is right next door. So he was assistant distiller at Tore, and then basically he went over to become a distiller ed, and then I became the assistant distiller in August 99.

Drew (00:08:27):
Okay. And so you were painting barrels and doing so how did you all of a sudden start moving up through the organization?

John (00:08:37):
Yeah, so there's different roles at the distillery and so I, I was only in the White House team for a year and at that time we used to do all the White House and for a beg distillery as well, but then it closed down so they didn't need so many warehousemen. I went into the floor for a period just over a year and then again entered the mashing and destination for just about kinda 18 months again. So changing jobs and then became assessment distiller just to, I guess, knew the processes now at the distillery. So just needed to understand the legal requirements, et cetera. And I've just gained a bit more technical expertise. So that's the process I went through over the next kind of four to six years.

Drew (00:09:31):
How many, because we think about it now with the whiskey boom you came in as that was beginning and there are so many skews now of whiskey coming out of each distillery. We have different cask finishes here in the states. You you're working with different types of barrels and blending different types of barrels together and doing all of that. When you first got there into that position, how many whiskeys there was La Freud 10 obviously, was there cast strength at that time?

John (00:10:08):
Just, yeah, and 15 in the mid nineties they came out. So at first it was only 10 year old when I at Floyd and that's all you could get. And then the cast trends, well 15 year old was there and then the Castres was released. Yep, okay. And then we just worked doing around the millennium, 30 year old, 40 year old, et cetera. And then just, it's ever evolving apart from the 10 that always remains the same.

Drew (00:10:38):
Yeah. Did you have somewhere that you, along the way where you introduced to them maybe the idea of jumping out and trying something different?

John (00:10:51):
Yeah, no, there's always discussions. I guess the biggest variation I would personally brought would've been the cartridge fringe. So that was kind of started under me and it just, again, that allowed us to show different sides of Laro without compromising the 10 year old because 10 year old is a 10 year old and that is the main brand for of and that's kind of what most people know as lro. So it was just a try and a wee bit of innovation around the edges. And yeah, just did a few fun things with cart.

Drew (00:11:30):
Yeah, when I was I've done the distillery tour and I've also done the warehouse tasting and I made the mistake on my first trip there of basically planning all three distilleries in the same day. And I started at Lavu and I did the warehouse tour there, then I went to Art Bag and did a full tasting over there and then walked down to do my, I don't remember much of my first tour at Lare because of planning those three back to back. And so when I came back, I ended up doing the warehouse tour and we were getting a chance to fill our own bottles and we did the Cas of a Monte, which was amazing. Yeah, I mean, did you have any styles that you came up with that you want sort of wanted to release but probably didn't get a chance to?

John (00:12:26):
Not really, no, not really because we cast that you were looking for different styles. So we did the amount had in 2014, I think so for the cartridge, and it was popular as well. Yeah. But nice kinda fruity, salty florally notes coming through. And it was quite cloy I think as well, that one from what I remember. So it was a lot of people really liked that one too. Quite fragrant and floral. And

Drew (00:12:53):
So it's interesting to think of the distillery manager position because some people probably picture that as in a large distillery as here's the guy who's kind of watching over everybody and maybe you're taking part in a little bit of the distilling process. I'm surprised to find that a lot of distillery managers end up being more ambassadors for the brand rather than actually being in the distillery. What was your experience while you were at Leroy?

John (00:13:24):
Yeah, no, it was definitely 90% distillery, 10% brand. You mean the brand really important. And they didn't really have brand ambassadors for La Floyd, so you had to do that as well. And as you do two jobs, basically, you do the more strategic on the production side and you're responsible for the legal. You can looking in always three or four months ahead. It's actually the assistant to Stellar that does the day-to-day running of the plant. So you're more like a support. And then you deal with all the people stuff. So making sure everyone's okay, making sure everyone's can happening for everyone and keeping on track good hand bad. So that's I guess, the main role of the distillery manager. And it's kind of like most people think you're just in a warehouse every day pulling bugs out the casks and just sampling. But it's very, very rarely you do that. So you really enjoy, I've probably done more of that in the last four months than I've done and then probably the last 10 years. So yeah,

Drew (00:14:37):
<laugh> has to be a shock too, because you're going from a warehouse that has whiskeys that have 1970 on them, 19 80, 19 90, and now all of a sudden they're all going to be 2018, I guess, and up.

John (00:14:54):
Yep. No, that's correct. Yep. It's all different ages. Although believe it or not, most of the Frog staff is under 10 years old as well, because the majority of staff is 10 and you're always planning 10 years ahead. So the majority of liquid atla flowing is under 10. So you're dealing with that a lot when you are dealing with liquids that anything over 10 is just like the cream on top from a lare perspective here at Lockley. Yep. We're just three and a half now. So yeah, it is. It's a definite ballgame. Completely. And it's just about it. It is kind of like lare, once you understand the liquid, once you understand what you're looking to do and what your focus is and what other things you need to do to get that, it just becomes easy. So that's ultimately what I'm trying to do right now is just get my feet under the table as fast as possible, understand the spirit, understand what the strategy is for the spirit, how we want it to be, and then just shape it towards that. So yeah, lots of work to do, but yeah, it's getting there pretty fast within four months as well. So that's

Drew (00:16:12):
Good. I guess the challenge coming into a position of distillery manager at Lare, it's not messing things up and making sure that you're keeping the legacy alive, whereas you're now kind of in the position of being able to create a legacy.

John (00:16:31):
Yeah, no, and it's, the easiest way to explain it is Lere holding the torch for the next person. You are just there, it's got 200 years. Lere is bigger than anybody or anything here at <inaudible> starting the fire. Mm-hmm. Basically for the torch. So it's a completely different angle. You're using all, I guess the way with all that I've gained over the last 30 years and trying to understand what that means, understanding air share as well, that's important that we try and whatever that means because that people understand that it's part of the spirit as well. So where we are, who we want to be is all happening just now. So it's pretty cool, different, it's completely opposite end of the scale from where I was. And again, non Peter Twersky versus Peter Twersky. So subtleties are really, really important. And non Peter Twersky, where as us Lere, the only thing you could do was mock up if you didn't have enough Peter of some of the other kind of nuances once you get beyond Pete weren't there. So yeah, the process was sale, whereas here we're understanding the layers of the spare and can it set in the process up for the future.

Drew (00:17:55):
Yeah. And what was your process for something like PX cas or were you really HandsOn in terms of choosing casks and trying to figure out what this would be?

John (00:18:06):
So the inaugural release for locally, the PX one. Yeah, so most of that was done we just had to tweak it at the end because it was literally getting bottled the week out, week or two after I was here. So just reviewed it. I guess I'm responsible for the spirit here and what we'd put out. So it was just a small tweak at the end. The process had happened during the summer where kinda we had at the site, they had chosen the casks, et cetera. We just added a couple of we things at the end and that was it. So that was the next release that's coming as well, the kind playing sewing release fully involved in that. And it just depends, again, it is once you start to understand the character or the personality of the spirit we chose a first all bourbon for the sewing edition that's coming.

(00:19:06):
Some people might call it springing but we generally tend to link things to the farm here in the distillery cuz it's one of the unique things that, well, that's the thing that makes us different. All the barleys growing on the farm, so it's a hundred percent farm growing processed through the site as well. And it's all a hundred percent matured on site as well. So it's completely different process here at Ley. So we link, well kinda of seasonal elements, I'm going to link to the farm. So we have sewing, harvest follow and plowing of the seasoned. So we're going to try and release what we will release different flavors for each of the seasons. So it's going to be a first fill bulb coming with season one. And for example, we just had to tweak the alcohol strengths a bit in that one just slightly as well. So we put the alcohol strengths up from, well we plan, I guess the minimum is 46% non-child filter of non-colored. So it's 48 the first fall part. But it's just give a bit more vibrancy that way.

Drew (00:20:14):
Yeah, it's nice to see this trend where we're raising that A B V, because traditionally it seems that it's been somewhere between 40 and 43. And I was actually shocked to see when I was there that I was finding bottles of laro get 40, whereas here in the states it's 43, which was confusing. Why would they do a difference like that?

John (00:20:39):
I think it's taxes

Drew (00:20:40):
Is

John (00:20:41):
It must be taxes, but it tastes different at 43 too. Yeah, it's a definite, it's better at 43% Lalo and I would bring bottles back from the US to show a member like that. The new distillery manager now, Barry AFF Laro, our system is different in the US and he went, well how's it different? It's the same spirit, it's 3% high alcohol, you just got a different balance and in your palate. And he says there's more fruit in the Lare in America, for example, anyway, okay, I don't believe it. So I took a bottle back and I showed him and he says, you're right, that makes such a difference, that 3% extra alcohol, but guess so it impacts flavor as well. But it must be tax I'm guessing. Okay, tax efficiency.

Drew (00:21:29):
Yeah, it's fascinating. And that's just really paying attention to the details now and I think that's probably another difference between when you first became a distillery manager at LA Fre and now is that the consumer is paying a lot more attention to those details, nochi filtered and color and looking at a B V and understanding whether this is something that's been reduced or is a casting.

John (00:21:59):
Yeah, no, and that's the great thing. The great thing I guess the whole industry is doing across brown spirits is the educational element showing folks how it is, what the character is it of each spirit, how it's supposed to be drunk, how you enjoy it, and then almost going to set you up within the guardrails of the KY and then it's up to you to explore around that as well. Because the one thing I would definitely say is I've learned a lot from a lot of folks just with conversations like this. And certainly if we've got a drama in our hands as well, it's one of the best bits about drinking whiskey is that connection and well what are you getting outta this whiskey and what am I getting? Oh, I don't get that. You get this. Oh right. Oh, when we're maybe feeling the same sensation, but it's just culturally, I guess through you and I, we've got different pallets so we'll maybe link the same feeling to different flavors and that whole kind of communication and exploration of flavor and pallets is really, that's really an interesting to me

Drew (00:23:10):
As well. Yeah, it's gotta be a challenge I would think. Having the ability to put a whiskey into a certain direction in terms of flavor, especially when you're blending and doing that sort of thing and trying to figure out, I guess, are you paying attention to what the public wants or are you in your own head space going, Ooh, that's really great And that appeals to me. And does it land more on your opinion or are you always thinking, what is the end user going to think about this?

John (00:23:46):
It's a good question and it's usually a combination of both. I would say. You have a rough idea of the direction of travel and where you want to go and the finessing is usually done by the consumers, I would say. So. Well I feel it's always helpful to get feedback. Certainly from the way I'm at Quest get anyways, I will absolutely listen to somebody who's got to say something good or bad. That's just, that's feedback. I am, I'm really happy if somebody's willing to sit down and speak to me and tell me what's good or not about what we're producing. So you would tweak even little fro, you would tweak things, you would always tweak and tweak and tweaking based on a bit of perception, but equally the direction of travel you kind of wanted to take it in as well. So I guess simple thing I could say as in 2006 when I became distillery manager, we uppe by 10% Laro just straight away.

(00:24:52):
So we started also started introducing some refill bulbs just so that you could get a bit more punch back in Laro because the perception is Laro had got softer and softer. So trying to put some word punch back into the floor and give people a wee bit more about good slap in the face, but whereas so you can use it, absolutely use it. And I think it's silly not to use perception and especially if a lot of people are saying it, I think you should always listen to something like that. So no, I'm open to both. I generally will understand the direction of travel and I will definitely use consumers and to staff here at the distillate just tweak things and understand am I right And everyone's almost the guardian of this and people will be passionate about Les same as the way but Freud and they'll really care and they'll make sure, which is always good to have doing my job as

Drew (00:25:58):
Well. Yeah. What did you think of the campaign that Freud had where they were basically showing people who couldn't stand it, <laugh> people who loved it. I mean it's like here's the first ad I've seen since maybe Volkswagen back in the seventies where a product's actually showing that people don't like it in one way or another.

John (00:26:22):
Yeah, no. And that is the thing, it's, it's just not everyone's cup laro and they're okay with that. And I guess this is the other thing maybe a different way of explaining Laro and Laley as well. Laro is like your grandpa sitting in the chair with a drum in his hand hand. He, he's comfy with who he is. He's sitting there with his Leo on saying, okay, if you don't like me, you don't like me, that's fine, see ya. And then whereas luckily is just kind of more just starting to grow and starting to understand this self and I guess that's about I'm trying to do really quickly is try and get through the teenage years so that we get a stable character. Yeah. Pretty quickly. So yeah, take it through the ups and downs and just push through. So I guess the definite way of looking at things as well.

Drew (00:27:17):
So this will be a weird question, did you bring the owl with you at Freud? No, <laugh>. The thing I noticed when I, I'm walking through the distillery, I'm like, there's an owl, what's this owl doing here?

John (00:27:29):
Yeah, allow us to scare the swallows because the SW to scare the swallows just to like they make a mess. Oh okay. Swallows And they open constantly cleaning up after them. And I think there was a 15 pairs at Lare, eh? Wow. Yeah, no and there are lots of parts, Lockley and there are S at Lockley as well. So yeah put, it's a farm so there's lots of barns. So yeah, we do have all these things. But yeah, no that was just stop the operators having to clean the mash town so much ere it didn't work.

Drew (00:28:04):
Well one of the other things I noticed while I was there, they mentioned that you had switched from using wooden fermentors to stainless steel fermentors and there's this question that goes around about does it make a difference in the final product? Did you notice any differences moving from one to the other?

John (00:28:27):
No,

Drew (00:28:28):
No.

John (00:28:28):
Nope. Can't see that. And it's be more felt non-PE whiskey I would say as well. So the nuances, cuz there are so many variables and making a liquid and with Laro you took a lot of them out by picking it so strong. But equally you would get other variables. It's got its own phone malting, so that would add a different flavor that other distilleries just don't have except for example, that kind of unbalanced destination at Laro as well. That kind of changed things very much as well. And then the is of climate food maturing. So there are so many, it's all the same process. And I guess that's once people start to understand all these nuances and what are the differences. Even if you say go down the south of Hala, there's two miles between three fantastic distilleries there with lero lag and EG as you've said there, it's two miles between the three of them, they're completely different and it's all just heavy peated. They're all kind of roughly, I put the same PE and levels and they're melted parlay, so probably using similar yeasts. Yeah, they all use water from opposite sides of the hills. So it's just changes through that process that make them all completely different.

Drew (00:29:56):
Very unique that Laro is out cutting their own and using it was around 20% that was actually peed barley. Yes. Yeah,

John (00:30:09):
Yeah. No that's right. Yeah, it makes a difference. Makes a difference. Yeah.

Drew (00:30:15):
So before we jump into the new distillery, I wanted to ask you, because I had a chance to go to George Washington's distillery at Mount Vernon and while I was talking to Steve Bayshore, he said that yeah, he said we had all these distillers come in and he said John Campbell came over from La Freud. What was your experience there? What did you get to do some distilling while you were there?

John (00:30:42):
Yeah, no, I've done all the jobs at Mount Vernon and it's who I would say is probably, it's one of the most inspiring things I've done whiskey wise. I would say it was just unbelievable. It stretched me in so many different ways over short periods of time. And I've gone back two or three times since lucky enough to be part of the team over to celebrate a hundred years of the whiskey association. And we made a single malt at Mount Vernon very small volumes. I think there was only 30 bottles of each made. So I've got one well one of each. So we did a kind of the single run and then the double run, which you would do for single malts you'd do a double desolation. But actually the single de distillation was better than the was double. So we just bottled some of the single and they kept the single mole as well and actually tasted better.

Drew (00:31:51):
What

John (00:31:51):
Kind of proof this is the small stills,

Drew (00:31:52):
What kind of proof did you get out of that running it only one time?

John (00:31:58):
I am not sure, that's a good question. I can't remember that detail. I need to look at my diary. But it really was inspirational for me in so many ways. It was just awesome and it was just felt a step back in time and you knew the technical things that you had to do, but it was just a whole different level of learning and it was just awesome. And it was spring and it was just gorgeous. We stayed on the site. It was just amazing. It really was amazing. It's definitely one of the highlights of whiskey making for me. No doubt about it. No doubt.

Drew (00:32:50):
The fun part about it, James Anderson, the distiller was Scottish and he had come from around the Edinburgh region, so not far from where you're at. And he had, when they set this up, I'm sure he was probably thinking back to some of the distilleries that he had seen probably in Scotland at the time. So it's really coming back to even what Scotland's distilling was probably like at that time.

John (00:33:22):
No, absolutely no doubt about it. Yeah, no, and it's just unbelievable. And if you're ever in just south of Washington Mount Vernon, it's just gorgeous. It's an amazing sight and he was an amazing man, George, so far ahead of his time and strategically and environmentally everything. It was just unbelievable.

Drew (00:33:46):
Yeah. Did you work along with other distillers while you were there besides Steve? Yeah,

John (00:33:51):
So Bill Longson was there from Glen Mork and Andy cant from Diagio. We were a three distillers selected from Scotland to go over and have so much fun and we just had a blast. It was unbelievable. And just even in the evenings, cuz Dave Becker was there as well unfortunately, well sad before what's happened to Dave there. But he was there. There was just so many folks that I've got to meet off the back of that visit as well. And I'd known Dave previously as when he was in charge of Maker Mark we were working for the same company then. So it was nice taking a get a round again and yeah, yeah, it was just awesome. Just the whole event. There was journalists and we all stayed in the house and it was just good fun, such good fun and just something you'll never forget.

Drew (00:34:52):
Fantastic. You ever see something like that happening in Scotland? Some, somebody being able to recreate something like that? Dunno. Yeah,

John (00:35:02):
I dunno. I dunno. You never know. That's tough. You

Drew (00:35:05):
Never know what happened. Absolutely. Yeah. So I guess you lived on site when you were at La Freud, right?

John (00:35:12):
Yes,

Drew (00:35:13):
Yes. So I'm guessing, I'm guessing you're not living on site here, you're dealing with traffic now?

John (00:35:19):
Yes. Yeah, but no, cuz I'm going against the traffic. Oh, okay. Everyone goes into class in the morning and comes out at night. I'm doing the opposite. Okay.

Drew (00:35:28):
So

John (00:35:29):
Yeah, it's a pretty, it's just a half 35 hour, 35 minute journey. Yeah. So it, it's different to have a commute and it's slightly different staying, I've been half stayed in Glasgow for, well I've had your flat for five years.

Drew (00:35:48):
Oh, okay.

John (00:35:50):
It's been in Glasgow a lot. No, Glasgow. Well it's the nearest city to ala so it would've been out and about in Glasgow a lot anyway, so yeah, it's different but it's okay.

Drew (00:36:05):
Glasgow's a great city. I love walking around Glasgow of all of the paintings that are up and just seeing the town and the sandstone, red sandstone buildings are beautiful.

John (00:36:23):
There is a lot of good architecture in Glasgow as well. Probably <inaudible>, most famous France architecture and it's stepping back 400 years in Edburg, whereas Glasgow's more like 200, 250 years and there's a lot of buildings from that period as you said. Yeah, kind red sandstone. Yeah, no, it's all different. Just got a different kind of different feel today, that's

Drew (00:36:47):
For sure. Yeah. So having a place in Glasgow, were you kind of contemplating a move at some point or how did you bump into this opportunity?

John (00:37:00):
Yeah, no, just chance. Just per chance. So yeah, we just met and start talking and then it was just came for a visit and then it was just like, okay, this is my next can move. I guess one of the things over the last two years, pandemic guess quite a lot of people have reflected on life opportunities, what they're going to do. And I guess there was a wee thing in my head saying, well if you don't move now you're able going to move and never moving wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world at all. I will always kinda love Lare and all of these things. I've still got my house in Isla so that like parents are there. So that Islas going to still play a big part in my life but it was more just as I kinda indicated earlier, I want to feel like I don't know the answers. I like that feeling, I want to be stretched, I want to be pushed. And it would've been very comfy at Laro. And I think that's the thing that's made me think, no, you need to stretch, you stretch yourself, really push. And so yeah, I just wanted that feeling and I've definitely got it moving to on an Peter Twk and the name that's not known yet, but it's starting to become known for lots of different reasons as well. So the KY will be famous and I have no doubt

Drew (00:38:44):
About it in its own time. Well this is again, as I say, an opportunity for you to help in creating maybe a style or personality for the distillery. And you're in the lowland region and lowland region for the longest time was considered triple distilled or lighter whiskeys, stuff that would be used in blends rather than, you know, get the heavier spirits up in the Highlands. But yet there seems to be this change in the regions. Do you think regionality still matters with in other words, should somebody be looking at a label and going, oh, I really feel like I want a lowland whiskey because I know what I'm going to get out of it?

John (00:39:33):
I think for the other regions I think it matters. I think for Loland does, it's changing completely. The narrative is changing for Loland, I would say some of the most kind of creative and I guess just different flavors are coming in the Orleans just now and it's just moving away from that. To me it's about the character of the area and the, I guess just more than the region in the low. So it's just about people are trying different things. It's probably going through a revolution just now to move away from that image that you've just said. I would say space outs want to remain space outs islands or want to be islands highlands, what little bit of change going on in the islands too and the islands are kind of moving the wee bit as well. So there's always, I guess change the lowlands is experiencing the biggest change because you're going from less kind of grassy Sealy kind of notes and into just full boarded kind of deep flavored whiskey now as well.

(00:40:55):
And I think definitely that is something we will be doing at locally Lee. It's producing that in a very approachable but deep flavored whiskey. So yeah, it will be kind of lots of variations from fruits through to floral and you will get cereals. It's important and especially for Lolee, it's really important to have serial elements coming through because it's grown just outside the window here. So if we can't show people that, I think that's really, really important. It's one of the things that defines us. So the folks need to try and taste it to understand what that

Drew (00:41:36):
Does. Yeah, I think now we've seen a lot more in the United States. I think it's really starting to take hold in Scotland. This idea of terroir and having your distilleries, like K Homan growing all of their own grain there and having that personality. Or Waterford over in Ireland is now doing that. They call in Nevada, they call 'em estate distilleries. And the idea being we grow it all here, we produce it and distill it all here, everything comes from this area so that we can get an idea of the flavor of the earth and what it's providing in this particular region. And so is that kind of where you're going with Luckily

John (00:42:25):
It's part of where we're going, just who we are a very kind of, it's defy basically a, it's a absolute a hundred percent farm grown distillery, so that's our character. We'll maybe try and amplify that a bit as things move along and yeah, no, it just, it's all about what even we don't fully understand even what maturing in air shed gives us. So that's something we still have to find out. So I guess we're going to be learning on the fly for the next 20 years to, before it's even, we can look back and say, oh this is all the changes and this is exactly the nuances that make locally. Locally.

Drew (00:43:17):
Yeah. What's the terrain there? Is it because I haven't been south of Glasgow, is it flat or is it kind of rolling hills?

John (00:43:26):
Yeah, it's more like ak, it's kind of rolling hills, lovely kind of green fields. There's quite, there's not much ible, mainly sheep farming or kind of dairies around this area. But yeah, no, so I think, I'm not sure I'll find out how much ible, but luckily is definitely all which kind of stands out this area. Yeah,

Drew (00:43:55):
Okay. It's interesting. I did not make the connection, I followed luckily on Instagram when I heard that you were moving over there. But it disconnected in my brain for some reason. And then during the Robert Burns birthday celebrations with the burn suppers and all that, I wanted to reach out to somebody to do a story or talk about burn suppers and how all those happen. And so then when I reached out to visit Scotland, they said, oh well you should talk to Lock Lee cuz they're on land that was once farmed by Robert Burns. So interesting. We kind of missed that opportunity with the burn suppers. But to talk about Robert Burns himself as an American, we connect Robert Burns with scotch whiskey and drinking because we just know that from, it's like St. Patrick's Day, people know St. Patrick from the idea of drinking, but a lot of people don't really know his backstory as well. And so talk a little bit Rob about Robert Burns and his connection to the farm that you are at now.

John (00:45:10):
Yeah, no, so he was from the village, which was just five or six miles away. He worked in two or three farms around this area lastly locally. And that he was here for seven years farming and just at this point he moved south to <inaudible>, but then his book the Kamarion was released and became a huge hit. So he moved into celebrity status pretty quick after that and he was actually thinking of going to Jamaica to be a customs officer but because the book was so successfully stayed in Scotland and entertained I guess the elite and himself, <laugh> probably four because he definitely was a character and he was very progressive for the time. Maybe too progressive in some areas. So yeah, no he is a unique character in so many ways and just for seven years he farmed at locally here at the distillery. So yeah, something we do talk about at the stories. So if you look at the top of our packaging, we kinda say dear, have to be honest and fear no labor is the saying we have on the top of the bottle and that's abundance thing. So just, and that's definitely kind of values we have in the DEC Distillery, just be honest. And what card?

Drew (00:46:55):
Yeah,

John (00:46:56):
So that's the, I guess the mantra, the

Drew (00:47:00):
Distillery. Are there any buildings still around the area that were from his time period?

John (00:47:04):
Yeah, no, the farmhouse. Okay, so the owners stay. So Neil and Jones still stay in the farmhouse, so Yep,

Drew (00:47:12):
Very nice. Still

John (00:47:14):
In.

Drew (00:47:14):
So let's talk about the distillery itself. As I understand it Jim Swan, who's worked on various distilleries around the world. My example that I've been to was which is a fun distillery and I have not been there someday I'll get traveling overseas, but is there a certain personality that he brings that's already established when you step into a distillery?

John (00:47:43):
Yeah, I think so. Another one you'll probably be asked Holman as well, so just yes, no, he has a deaf, he has a defined way of processing and I guess one, and it's a package I guess more than anything. So if you process this way and you mature this way, you'll get spare it that basically it gets there a bit quicker. So you'll do kinda high cuts and then low cuts for longer maturity. And it definitely, it is worked well and usually the setups are pretty good with Jim's one, I would say it's proven kind of technology. If you think of these distilleries that you've just talked about they're all pretty popular and producing pretty good liquid I would say. So locally has similar formula to that. And so yeah, the first one would've been higher cut liquid the first release which will be hit in the US kinda around May, june time. So you'll start to see, that'll be the the earlier release stuff as well. So the higher cuts just to get, it just helps with take a, we are wee better, they can, it just matures to be bit quicker basically. Yeah,

Drew (00:49:15):
Way. So when you're doing your aging, is your plan to use more bourbon or to experiment with different types of cherry barrels?

John (00:49:30):
Eh be a combination of first of all bourbon and shady casks that we will use for the majority of our packages and we will use some European oak and some packages and this is now the bit I have an idea, but with the seasonal elements coming through will, the consumers will decide this last bit of the direction of travel. So we're 90% there. The seasonal elements will help us just decide what the direction of travel is and I think the cherry one will be definitely popular. We've got a, first of all, Sherry coming and follow season switches. Autumn,

Drew (00:50:17):
Was there a little nervousness when you released the first batch that here's your baby going out into the world and what are they going to say about it?

John (00:50:32):
Not really. I knew it was good. Yeah, I knew it was good. No, not really. And then the fact that it's sold out pretty much everywhere in half a day, every country's sold out. Yeah, I think people are interested. The feedback's been really, really good so far. So hopefully the guys in the US will, it's small volumes unfortunately just now because that's just what we've got. We are working towards bigger volumes coming hopefully be worth you guys in the fall. Yeah. But it's just kind of releasing and understanding and kind of nudging our way forward. But yeah, no the liquid's good. It really is good. So I'm okay with that. It's just finessing.

Drew (00:51:19):
Yeah,

John (00:51:20):
It's just finessing there. So yeah,

Drew (00:51:22):
No, it's the challenge of going from, but there's so many non aged stated whiskeys out these days that I think the pallet has gotten more used to younger whiskey. And I, for me actually, well in the case of ped whiskey, I actually prefer non age stated to older because I find the older it gets, the more it loses the character that I really like, which is the Pete and takes on too much of the oak, which I feel like you can get anywhere.

John (00:51:53):
Yeah, no that's true. And for the cart, since I would always use an eight year old Laro just had still at the punch, still at Defy and it was just my favorite age. Yeah,

Drew (00:52:05):
Yeah.

John (00:52:06):
So yeah, now I stand out completely and I think mean a lot of people do use age and the industry has used aged as a gardener of quality in the past. I think people are more experimental now. I think people are keen to see I think that you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out what age the locally were releasing as we started in September, 2018. So it's small volumes, it's like three and a half. So it's just like it's still good liquid, it definitely has still a good liquid. It's evolving. I think people like to be on the John as well and see how luckily well evolve and develop and kind of grow into whatever it becomes, but people like to feel part of that too. So I think it's really important as well that they understand that the taste of the distillery would to your point as well. So if it's slightly younger, you start to understand that character

Drew (00:53:14):
Completely,

John (00:53:15):
As you say, it knocks the edges off as you get older and older and older and you get more of a balance between the cask and the distillery flavors.

Drew (00:53:23):
I think the tricky part would be figuring out cask management and saying how many of these barrels do we keep around and how long are we going to keep them around? What is that age statement or what is that age when this thing is going to say, wow, this is really it's peak.

John (00:53:40):
Yeah, no, absolutely. One of the jobs I've done since I've come in is just like, well, we'll go for here and if this is right, it's right and if it's wrong we'll leave it. But you've just got to do that. And equally, planning a 25 year old, how do you know much of that? You've going to need to, you've just got to plan for it. Yeah, the one thing, the plan will always be wrong, but you've sold what the plan

Drew (00:54:09):
And to your point about the figuring out what air shirt's going to be to this liquid, if it's humid, it's going to age one way. If it's arid, it's going to be a different way. And so knowing how much whiskey is going to be left in that cask as it's aging and how long it can stay there before it finally says, okay, wait a second this is starting to taste like wood.

John (00:54:41):
Yeah, I'm quite sensitive to that. A lot of people would say I'm very sensitive to that. It's like, I don't like wood chuck and whiskey, I still, you have to, if you're buying a bottle of broccoli, you have to taste lly and not chewing the table.

Drew (00:54:57):
So we can't really unfortunately is that, I don't have a bottle to do a tasting on cuz it hasn't gotten here yet. But kind of describe the whiskey if you could, the first release and what is coming to the us?

John (00:55:14):
So the inaugural release is be matured in Pedro and first of all s and it's a marriage of them together. And so there is quite a lot of that fruit up front with Pedros and the nose is kind of soft, it's not harsh at all. It's bald at 46, 92 proof. It's non shell filtered, but you just get layers as you could through the liquid as well, I feel. How would you describe it? It's full of flavor, kind of going from kind of fruity notes, you do get kind of cereal notes obviously coming through as well from the barley. We then move into, there are kind nutty flavors I find as well. We're going to try and boost the floral flavors a wee bit more as well coming through and locally. But there are nice kind layers coming through. The PX also gives it a wee bit extra body, so a bit more kind of feeling of mouse feel I guess is the best way to explain that. A bit heavier in your mouse but it's so easy to drink as well and you've, it's one of those ones where you're going to find your way quarter of the way down a bottle and before you've even realized it. Yeah. So it's really, really tasty liquid for a first release and yeah, no I think people like it and you don't need water, just take it straight from the ball and it's, it's absolutely delicious. Yeah.

Drew (00:57:00):
Do you think you'll ever do an experiment was done at the George Washington distillery where you just run it in the single pass,

John (00:57:10):
Eh we need to go slow, we need to go really slow. So yeah, I'm not sure we are trying to tell, I guess there's a few technical things to fix that locally. So we are working our way through them and that's just for efficiency as much as anything else. We need to improve efficiency. So we're working our way through these things. We are understanding, we understood the boundaries of the awkward a lot more recently as well. So we will be set up both from efficiency and our kind of quality point of view pretty soon. And then yeah, well, we'll just once we've got a foundation set then yes, some stuff will happen. There's no doubt about it. We've got that opportunity and we've got that license here to try different

Drew (00:58:07):
Stuff. A distillery in Tennessee that I went to that the guy was showing me his still and he's talking through it and his family has tradition in moon shining and he said and he was talking through the process and he said, so we run it through the still and then we take it out and we put it they actually put sticks oak sticks into age it in the bottles. Amazing. Which is really interesting. But as he was describing it, he said yeah, so we run it through the one time and I said, you only distill it once. And he said, yeah, my grandpa, he told me if you had to run it more than once, you're doing something wrong. This is fun to hear how different people do things. So that's always been fascinating to me because he was able to get 86 proof out of a whiskey that he was just running through the still one time.

John (00:59:04):
Yeah, no I know you'd be running it really slowly to get that. Yeah. So the slower he'd be still looking at the higher, the proof will be where you first run.

Drew (00:59:12):
Yeah. So how big is your staff compared to how big it was at Laro?

John (00:59:19):
Yeah, <laugh>, slightly D <laugh>. So there's a about four Laro and there's about four at Ley. So

Drew (00:59:28):
I take it you're,

John (00:59:29):
It's a completely different scale, completely different scale. Probably Laro will do in about eight hours what we do in a week.

Drew (00:59:40):
So

John (00:59:41):
It's just a, it's completely different scale altogether here.

Drew (00:59:46):
I was asking before we started this, if you ever hop on the tractor?

John (00:59:51):
Not yet, not yet. I'm thinking over though. But we, we've just started plowing the fields today so that's the start of the process for us now. That's the start of the new year and this will be not this year's whiskey but next year's whiskey. So yeah, no it's exciting today we, cuz it's, yeah, this is us starting to get the ground ready for sewing the bar away so

Drew (01:00:15):
Yeah, that's

John (01:00:16):
Fun. Which will turn into next year's whiskey. Yeah,

Drew (01:00:19):
So you're a little bit more hands on here than you were over at Laroy.

John (01:00:25):
Yeah, no, you're a Lockley, a Swiss army knife, you've got to do a wee bit of everything whereas it probably at Laroy given more about kind of specialist in certain areas. Yeah. So yeah, now you've just got to do a wee bit of everything at Lockley. So again, just so yep have, if you a member of the boat better a can feel no labor, you've just gotta to get your hands off <laugh> clean. Yep. All good.

Drew (01:00:50):
So I'm a of a traveler and so I always kinda keep my eye on what new distilleries are popping up and if they're going to have visitors center or not. Is that something that will is in the future or is that kind of still on the back burner?

John (01:01:05):
It's on the back burner just now. It will probably come at some point, but not yet. No, we're still trying to keep it kinda quiet and just going to go about our business, make it rescue it's, it's not ready for visitors the site to be honest. And that that's probably it more kind of in a nutshell as well. Yeah, the owner still stays on the site so we come in and disrupt him every day making whiskey. Yeah, no it is just a small farm. There's about five or six places to park cars and that's it. We just don't have the infrastructure because as I said, we're 35 minutes south to Glasgow. We are in Barnes country, which in itself draws well over half a million visitors a year. So into the town that's six. So we are right in Tourist central in Scotland as well. So it's probably a bit just over an hour from Edinburgh as well. So we are not that far away from kind of a lot of places that tourists will visit. So we could be really busy I would expect, but just not yet. We just don't have the infrastructure to be able to deal with that amount of people. Yeah.

Drew (01:02:26):
Well it's great to see you now thriving in and getting the opportunity to get a challenge again in your life and really put your own stamp on what is coming out of Lee. I appreciate you so much joining us and talking about the distillery and giving us some insights into your past as well as what's coming up.

John (01:02:50):
Yeah, no thanks Drew. And yeah, hopefully Christ, I'm thinking it should be arriving May June time you'll get to see some of the inaugural, although I would assume it'll go pretty fast in the US as well. They are limited boat lanes, which is unfortunate but hopefully, yeah, it's been too long since I've been in the US as well. I would've been quite a frequent visitor to the US all over the place with Lare and personally as well cuz I like to kind of just go over and visit. So hopefully get over there soon once we've got the kind of cold recipe ongoing recipe set and we've got a bit more volume, I'll be over to hopefully show you the hardwares and be nice face to face as well. That would be cool.

Drew (01:03:42):
Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you very much John and good luck moving forward. And if you wanna learn more about luckily Distillery, then just head to lock lee distillery.com, that's L O C H L E A and for show notes, transcripts and links to whiskey, Lord Social Media, head to whiskey lord.com. And if you enjoy today's episode, you want to compare some notes with the Jeff Arnette episode that is episode number 45 where Jeff and I talk about his life at Jack Daniels and his new life at Company Distilling. And if you can't get enough whiskey history, consider heading to facebook.com and joining the official whiskey lore community. You'll get behind the scenes details. You can take part in community events and make some new whiskey friends along the way. That's the official whiskey lore community on Facebook. I'm your host, drew Hamish, and until next time, cheers and Lan jva Whiskey Lores a production of Travel fuel's Life, L L C.