Ep. 38 - Glen Scotia Distillery's Iain McAlister

Transcript

Drew (00:00:14):
Welcome to Whiskey Lore, the interviews. I'm your host, drew Hamish, the Amazon bestselling author of Whiskey Lores Travel Guide to Experience in Kentucky Bourbon. And today it's time to head to Campbelltown Scotland, the other former whiskey capital of the world. And we're going to share my conversation with Glen Scotia's, distillery manager Ian McAllister. And last time I was in Scotland, I had a chance to meet with him, chat a little bit about the amazing whiskeys that they're producing at Glen Scotia. And today we're not only going to talk about his distilling process, but we'll also talk a little bit about Campbelltown itself, his experience growing up there, and some of the stories in history surrounding the town. And if you haven't heard it yet after this interview, check out the Whiskey Lore podcast in my story of the history of Campbelltown, where I dig all the way back into the very origins of Scotland and scotch whiskey. But right now, let's jump right into my interview with Ian McAllister of Glen Scotia Distillery. Hello, Ian, welcome to the show.

Iain (00:01:24):
Hello. Hello, drew. Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Drew (00:01:29):
So Glen Scotia is in Campbelltown, and Campbelltown is something I'm going to be featuring in my whiskey lore podcast, telling the history. And at one time there were upwards of 30 distilleries in that town, and if you walk around the town today, it's really hard to tell that there were 30 distilleries in the area. It was called the whiskey capital of the world. So when you were growing up in Campbelltown, was this something that you heard on and off, or was it kind of not talked about or because that was a pretty big impact on that town?

Iain (00:02:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely. Drew, as you say, Campbelltown, the association with it. And as I say, I was born in Campbelltown, so it's obviously something that's, you know, held through the years as you were growing up. Obviously the association with whiskey in Campbelltown, it's unique. It's a small town in the west coast of Scotland. The population nowadays, you'd be lucky if it's 5,000, the very maximum there would be about 9,000 people here. But as you quite rightly say, you know, think, where are all these distilleries? Well, these distilleries would be small affairs, they'd be small, compact units. They would start off with very limited production. They would come from some of them from illicit backgrounds, et cetera, and they would obviously develop. And the geography of Campbelltown, especially obviously it's maritime position, obviously lent itself to that development through wealth, external wealth that was made in other industries, which was obviously carried forth into the Husky industry. So as you say, there's certainly our uniqueness there that is evident. It's tangible, it really has.

Drew (00:03:28):
I had fun walking around town and actually had a map of where all the old distilleries were. So it was interesting to see because there were a lot of lots around and they looked like they'd been there for a long time. So it seems like it rolled over from being a town of distilleries to a town of just people living there. So what was the industry that was supporting Campbelltown after all these distilleries disappeared?

Iain (00:03:59):
Well, as I said, the whiskey industry obviously had a huge significant Campbelltown, and it is quite interesting when you consider, was whiskey ever accepted in Campbelltown? It was a source of income, but it was never really publicized. There was certain individuals, journalists, Alfred Barnard, et cetera, who came to Campbelltown and obviously, and they're a great resource from that time period, the latter half of the 19th century. But obviously people were really religious in that time period. So there wasn't a lot of photography or pictures from that era. And that continued really. I can remember looking at papers from the late seventies, and I think it was a centenary of the local paper, and I looked through the paper and it highlighted farming, fishing, forestry. There was a clothing factory, et cetera at that time. And I don't think there was anything that mentioned whiskey. Wow.

Iain (00:04:58):
Aye, I found out quite peculiar. But whiskey, whiskey wasn't what we see today. Whiskey was, dare I say, a necessary evil potentially. It was funny. It's funny how attitude's changed, but yeah, answer your question. I mean, nowadays, obviously I think the workforce really is, it certainly diversified the huge number of what people involved in whiskey in the latter half of the 19 century. I mean, that's pretty much been gone getting on for nearly a hundred years now. So it's well, out of living memory, what, and as I said, people are all different. A lot of people work away now and in the small businesses and such likes. Yeah, it's changed a lot, changed considerably through.

Drew (00:05:57):
So you had, and to describe Campbelltown, for people who haven't pulled out a map to look, it's basically a peninsula, it's the mole of Contre. Is that the proper pronunciation taking that from Paul McCartney?

Iain (00:06:13):
Yeah, yeah. It's actually take, if we want to get really picky, and technically it is canta some mark of market, the Mulk Canta, but actually the Mole or Mole or Scott Golic name is actually a headline. So the Mulk Canta is actually the headline, the Southern End India.

Drew (00:06:35):
Okay.

Iain (00:06:37):
Yeah. But you're right, you're as a more or less an island in the west coast of Scotland, drew,

Drew (00:06:45):
And you can see Ireland from there on a clear day.

Iain (00:06:48):
Yep, yep. Absolutely. 12 mile, it might not even be as far as that, but it's roughly about 10 ish miles, I think over at the Irish coast there, the feathers. So it's very, very close. And it is a good point because there's always been that huge historical connection with Ireland and obviously the west coast of Scotland, the elderly, Scotts, the gills, they obviously come up this way and colonized and potentially too whiskey distilling with them.

Drew (00:07:19):
So that's always the argument that comes up. Was it Ireland that brought whiskey to Scotland and if they had, they likely brought it through Campbelltown?

Iain (00:07:31):
Well, yes. Yeah. Mean obviously,

Drew (00:07:35):
Or the area.

Iain (00:07:35):
Yeah, I think so. Absolutely. I would pretty much bet my money on, obviously coming up through Ireland, obviously there was that time, Christianity and whatever, K through Ireland. Ireland was probably slightly more stable than the west coast of Scotland was the picks, whatever that was resident in Scotland. So the Banat obviously that thoroughfare, if you like, of knowledge. There was obviously the missionaries at that Air LA when you go right back, early LA period. So undoubtedly they would've taken distillation of the techniques of distillation with them up through Ireland, up to Delk, which obviously it became, so

Drew (00:08:22):
During the early years of development of that area, fishing was a big industry, herring apparently was your big market, but that seemed to have faded too around the time the distilleries faded. Is that true?

Iain (00:08:41):
Yeah, yeah. I mean the fisheries really, they pretty much predated the distillery. So a lot of the wealth came from the fisheries and such. Obviously as I say, Campbelltown geographically was perfect for her fisheries. And the Heron used to grab the famous lock fine, which is obviously on the inward side, if you look at Canta and the map, you'll see the Lyde lock fine, et cetera. So there was a huge, huge bounty available. And bounty, I mean in the fish available at that time, those him fisheries, so huge wealths, local wealths were developed or gleaned from that. So that fishery predated and it continued right up through the mid to early 18th century, right up until, oh my goodness, I'm trying to think, probably right up until about the 1970s, but now Marsh, all our scale, the Herman fishery would've been evident here, but it's all going, it's all going how I'm my feet.

Drew (00:09:51):
So the other industries that were probably big once the distilleries come in, because if we talk about it, there was illicit distilling going on all over the place in the early 18 hundreds, late 17 hundreds. But then in 1817, the laws started to change and that's when Campbelltown got its first distillery. And then within a span of five years between the excise law of 1823 and 1828, I think there were some 10 15 distilleries that all of a sudden popped up. And then there were 27 by 1837. So I mean, that's explosive growth. So you got to figure, you probably had a lot of peat cutting going on around there, and you had a lot of malting going on around there. I mean, there had to be a lot of industries that surrounded the distilling industry.

Iain (00:10:50):
Yeah, it, and it is quite fascinating when you consider the, earlier after these distilleries that obviously became evident in Campbelltown, there were partnerships. So obviously it was a case of spreading the rescue 2, 3, 4, 5, maybe individuals who start up this small affair. And as I mentioned earlier, a lot of them would've been illicit distillers. They would've had a certain amount of skill there to develop this further. It was quite remarkable. I think it was a perfect storm, you know, consider these early distillers and obviously the peak was available. Absolutely, they would a certain amount of peak, they wouldn't use a great amount of peak, but they would built access peak. But when you consider the barley, and I get all my barley, Glen Scotia from the east coast of Scotland, but these guys, when you start to get through the 19th century, I mean they were getting barley from Ireland, from France, from Denmark. So there's huge intercontinental relationships developing barrels, casks. We would've been using bar casks, not for finishing the red and fancy, but purely this as a storage vessel for liquid at that time. So they were really, really switched on. They knew their industry well. They obviously allowed them to develop it into something special. And these early Campbelltown distillers, a lot of them progressed to selling spirits of whiskey and Glasgow and some of them even reached London. So it's remarkable. Remarkable.

Drew (00:12:36):
So the thing I would assume is that because you are on this outer part of Scotland closest to America, that if whiskey was going to get shipped out, it probably would've shipped out of Campbelltown. Was there any export that you know of going on out to America? I mean, I know there was scotch being consumed in the late 19th century, but prior to that I don't think there was a lot going on.

Iain (00:13:06):
No. Well, as you quite rightly say, Campbelltown obviously was strategically placed for that transatlantic trade, whether you wanted it to be or not. It was obviously a first protocol. And I have read it previously, I think there was a certain association with Scotia and Prohibition in the us. So a lot of this stuff would've went from Campbelltown into Canada and obviously cross border obviously smuggled, but yeah. Yeah. And there's a famous story that I've told a lot of people, and artsy comes out of eh one Angus Martin's book, Campbelltown Distillers, some of them owned vessels for barlay and moving goods about and such. They could potentially bring certain casks parts from the continent. But this highlights to me how mobile and how on the ball these early distillers were. So this, and the name alludes me exactly whose ship it was. But this distiller on the ship drew and he was taking a loader draft spent of obviously out the marsh into draft from Campbellton to Belfast, dropped it off there. And this CE lump ship this in be fair size, after he went to Belfast, he went to Southern Wales with a load of pig iron, scrap iron. He went from Southern Wales to Portugal with coal. They went from Portugal to Canada with salt and they went from Canada to the far end of the Mediterranean with fish. And I thought, wow,

Drew (00:14:55):
Yes,

Iain (00:14:56):
That not quite remarkable

Drew (00:14:58):
Making use of your trip for sure.

Iain (00:15:00):
Isn't you? They could teach us a thing up too.

Drew (00:15:02):
Yeah. For efficiency. Absolutely. So when you walk around town, and again coming from your youth, were there distillery elements still left around warehouses, any of those kinds of signs? Like I say, I walked around and I tend to walk into modern structures rather than any of the warehouses. But for instance, Glen Scotia, where do you do your warehousing? And is Glen Scotia in its original spot and building?

Iain (00:15:40):
Yeah, yeah. Well absolutely yes. I mean Glen Scotia's been in the same spot since 1832. It slightly grew versus it's enlarged, its perimeter for sure. There used to be shops around one side where the cherry trees are, the rock warehouse was in 1970s edition. So it's always been in the same spot. But when you look at old plans, Glen Scotia, it was very much how Alfred Bernard describes these distilleries. It was food close and alleyways and there was hidden courtyards. And that's the way it was. All these places were the same. There would've been grim, there would've been grim places. And to be fair, they would've been awful to work in. There's no romanticism about working in these places in that time period, I'm afraid. But yeah, when you walk around the town and think local knowledge is really helpful there, if you where to look, there's certainly, well a lot of them just four walls now.

Iain (00:16:52):
But the warehouses tend to last longer. If you close a distillery, the distillery tends to vanish far quicker than the warehouses. Well the warehouses will always hang about for obvious reasons there. So there is buildings as lock end Hazel bend dis warehousing disappeared a few years ago, I think 20 odd years ago. There's different places about spring banks still got a lot of the old original damage warehousing along Reeb Street and we've got the new place. So yeah, there's certainly buildings that's obviously another use. And if you know where it look, you can see that frenetic building boom that went on at certain part where they were hurriedly trying to build distilleries and obviously catch up with the neighbor, catch up with, they're all ready to produce Husky, we need to produce Husky.

Drew (00:17:51):
Well, I think that tradition of quick building of distilleries probably came from the illicit distilling and the fact that they learned how to build one quickly so that they could have some production and then if it was discovered, then they could build somewhere else quickly and be able to do it. And I mean, you got to know how to build a distillery quickly if you're going to have so many of them developed within such a short period of time. And it was some of the same names I think was a name that I saw frequently attached to several of the distilleries in those early days.

Iain (00:18:32):
Yeah, absolutely. There was a Colvilles, Mitchells Spring Bank, Glen Gal re Clarken and the Greenlees. So there all obviously was that they became the big names and whiskey distilling, a lot of them did come from illicit backgrounds. It's a picture that actually Angus Martin, the local author showed me. And it's absolutely fantastic picture. And when you think about it, it it's not something you see very often. It's actually a picture of illicit distill setup with the participants standing at the still. Oh wow. What can distill

Drew (00:19:17):
Evidence? Yeah,

Iain (00:19:18):
I'll need to try and I'll send you if I find it, but it is, it's wonderful. And you, I'm not sure where it's staged or no, but it's from that era, the 19th century. You see them with a still and you see them beside the bun all. And the comical thing for me from my point of view is Angus points out there's McAlister, similarly McAllisters who are running the, still no relation to me. I mean they're ones of the black.

Drew (00:19:52):
Yeah, yeah. So I was your, because you've grew up in capital town, so what industry did your family grow up around?

Iain (00:20:02):
Well my father actually, as I say, no whiskey. No whiskey, that within living memory anyway. Yeah, yeah. Unless we about picture. But no, my father was pretty much involved in forestry all these days. He started when he was 15 with the forestry back in the fifties that he spent all these days working in forestry. So he was very much that from that year. And probably things had been different from me and the world had been slightly different places. Probably something that lifestyle I would've followed too. But anyway, that's that. So it was, my mother used to work too. She worked for the local council, she worked in the school mill service. So she worked that until she took not well. And myself, I say yeah, I started off at the fishing when I left school, I went to the fishing. I never really had a huge desire to go anywhere at that time. I was quite happy waiting here. And from there I developed own from the fishing to what, six, seven months in New Zealand with my wife at that time before we the family. Then I came back and I started off with the local water, Scottish water. As it finally became more than an engineering operational role.

Iain (00:21:37):
I always had a love for whiskey, the history, the technicalities, I making whiskey and everything about it. And I was lucky enough in 2008 to secure the role here at Glen Scotia. And I think what I mentioned earlier about Glen Scotia, I think it was very much a case at that time that probably the industry is, it was even that short time ago, it was probably a role that maybe wouldn't appeal to many because it was very much a HandsOn sort of place out kind of role. And nowadays if that same role would come up, you'd probably get folks from all around the world

Drew (00:22:18):
After me. Well I was reading the David Stark book on Campbelltown and he said that when he looked at it in 2005, it needed a coat of paint and I think he was being nice at that time. Yes,

Iain (00:22:36):
Absolutely. I mean, you're right. When I started in 2008, it needed more than a caught pain. If it was only the caught pain, it was needed, then we would be on a winner. It needed so much done to it. And through there was issues with all manner of apparatus, condensers, receivers, brooming tanks, pumps, everything really the molten, the melan saw side of it, the elevators and such. So there's a huge huge amount needing didn't looked at. So it was a huge task to get it all to where it needed to be these early days. I was working quite closely with John Peterson at, and John, he was my boss at that time. But he was a fantastic guy. He is so know, knowledgeable about the whiskey industry in general. He obviously spent his whole life in it too, more or less. So yeah, it was a task. It was a task.

Drew (00:23:51):
So let's go a little bit through the history and talk about what we know of Glen Scotia. So when I was reading the book that I was going through, they kind of skipped over it, but it was established in 1832, so it was kind of at the tail end of all of this great development that was going on, that first big burst of distilleries coming in. And then a man named Duncan McCallum purchased it around 1891. And as I understand it, the building that's standing there now is the building that he had built in 1897,

Iain (00:24:33):
Correct? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're right. Well, it was actually built 1832, obviously it was right bang slap in the middle of when you were getting the Spring Bank, 1828, you would get Laro and Dylan Tobar, Glen Scotia, and a myriad of other distilleries. So they're all coming online at that time. Glen Scotia wise, it's stayed in the same hands right up until, as you mentioned Drew quite correctly, up until 1890s it was Stuart Gore and Coal. So there was a Steward Gore and other investors at that time. Once you get to that time period, then obviously a lot of the original owners were passing on dying out, et cetera. So Duncan McCollum a very interesting character. He was obviously born in Campbelltown. He came from nothing really, and he was obviously a very successful businessman. He owned Glen Scotia, ultimately it's Glen Nevis Alaa. He had can lock distilleries. So it quite a lot of these distilleries at that time period, and obviously the latter half of the 19th century when he built that main frontage, as you say, when you see Glen Scotia, you see that frontage, which he obviously built as the molten floors cask storage below there. And it must have been a huge undertaking in that time period. But yeah, he was really a, go ahead

Drew (00:26:17):
And we'll get to the, we'll kind of jump back into Campbelltown history, but there was a point where when you have all these distilleries coming in, that water was becoming an issue. You think you're on a peninsula and you're surrounded by ocean, how could water end up being an issue? But of course that's salt water versus what you're needing for distilling. So the town had to come up with an answer to that and that what you use as your water supply now, right, the cross hill lock.

Iain (00:26:48):
Yep. Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. Cross a lock was, well it was really just a barn as we call a stream a river, whatever you want to call it, but a barns like in a small river and it was fed by a spring. So the dama of the duke of a gal who was a main landowner at that point, he obviously had the dam built and obviously laid two water main to feed this blossoming distilling industry that was obviously coming online at Campbelltown. From his point of view, obviously it was financial, he's seen it as a business venture. Obviously we charged with distillers so much for the water coming from this cross, all the dam. And in bear in mind that the distillers at this time, as I say kind of early part of the 19th century, would've obviously been able to obtain pipe water before the local populace in the town with. So basically if you're staying in the town, you would still be using the well to obtain your water where these distilleries were getting it piped, two of them. So

Drew (00:28:06):
You basically had two lines running, one to the distilleries and one to the town

Iain (00:28:11):
That came later. Okay. Yes, in the main emphasis in the early days was the distilleries alone and then obviously the town came after that. And then yeah, it did feed the town before there was a new set up built, 1950s I think the new set was built.

Drew (00:28:34):
So between Cross Hill Locke and Duncan Macallan, there is a ghost story that evolved out of him and out of this lock. Can you go into that story?

Iain (00:28:47):
Yeah, yeah. I mean it is quite remarkable actually. And you see that as that connection and you wonder if he was wanting that connection. I don't know, it's like going full circle. But anyway, and it is probably worth mentioning Duncan Duncan, as I say, absolutely. He was a fantastic businessman. He made his money, he made his wealth, he loved sailing, he loved boats. He obviously had a lot of free time, but it was incredibly generous to the local community through giving derelict our lungs and closed distillery sites back to the local community for housing, et cetera. The stories that when he was coming home in the steamer Campbelltown during the Great War, he'd obviously soldiers, it was on the steamers, we would make sure they're all fed, he would buy them dinner, et cetera. So he obviously had a generous streak to him. But yeah, this, and again, nobody knows why he did this, but pretty much 1930, I think it was December, just pretty much about Christmas time, 1930, he left his house down road a lovely place, east Cliff. So he left that house and he walked up the back of the house up the hill to cross a walk and he drowned himself. And it was a strange event. It'd have been in his eighties. And you heard all the rumors, the rumors you used to read a lot of them online. It was tricked out a lot, large sum of money. But when he died in 1930, I think he left something like 284,000 pound, which was, it would've been a millionaire probably at that period.

Drew (00:30:39):
So yeah, he wasn't destitute. I guess the rumors floated around that maybe he had a deal that went bad or something like that. But it's, when you hear those stories, and I love that you started off by talking about him and his generosity prior to that because sometimes we get wrapped up in these ghost stories and we'll talk about the ghost part of it here in a moment, but we forget that there's a person behind there that lived a life and this was somebody who gave to the community and was an important character for Campbelltown.

Iain (00:31:18):
Yeah, absolutely. You're right. He was a human being. He had feelings like the rest of us. And even when I look at his pictures, I see a soft feeling to him. He is obviously incredibly clever. He obviously done well in business. He learned from a clerk all the way up to obviously owning his own businesses. So obviously a new were thing or two about business at that time. So yes, the ghost story. Yeah, I heard this story through the years, different stories about the ghost at Glen Scotia. Duncan McCollum's meant to hunt Glen Scotia, and it was something, even before I was involved in the whiskey industry, I heard the story of Duncan McCollum, and funnily enough, it's in the main building that he obviously, well, one of the main buildings, but probably the most significant nowadays, a building that he had hand in. So he is, he's meant to be in the upper reaches of the mill room. I mentioned this to my wife on numerous occasions, and I've got to see my dear wife Shelly, slightly more in tune with her, let's say spiritual.

Drew (00:32:40):
Yeah.

Iain (00:32:42):
So she, I'll say, I'm not seeing this ghost at all, Shelly. I could go down there at two in the morning and I don't see this ghost. And she says, Ian, you, you'd probably walk by the ghost and you wouldn't even see 'em.

Drew (00:33:00):
You, you're like me. I could go downtown and all of a sudden spot a building not seen before it. I'm not as aware as I probably should be of things around me. Yeah,

Iain (00:33:14):
I mean that there has been occasions, and there was one slightly before I started, there was a big burly guy and he is working in the mill and he is working up the top of the mill and he was servicing, he was up from England and he actually came out the place and he was terrified. He says, I'm not going to says there was something, well, no, I can, you just need to watch your movies and you get this.

Drew (00:33:44):
So he would've been lonely for a lot of years because Glenco has shut down several times. It shut down for World War, it shut down for World War ii. It had time after his death that it was shuttered for some time. And even in the early 21st century, it sounds like it had some quiet times.

Iain (00:34:10):
Yeah, and it was always, Glen Scotia obviously has been a few different hands through the years. During the boom periods, it was always running well, it was running efficient, obviously. When you get in the 1920s, well, hang on, hang on. I think it, hang on really because who owned it at that time, the stock, et cetera. There was association with where Glen Nevis at lasa, that started off as a blending and bot in arm of the business. Obviously at that time you'd block brothers, see different owners who owned it for a short period of time, Hiam Walker, et cetera, right up until Gillis and Gillis took it over, it was quite stable right through the sixties, right up until more or less, the end of the seventies, 1977, the Gillis Glasgow distiller spent a million pound in the distillery, which was a huge investment at that time and it pretty much shut no long after that.

Iain (00:35:21):
Right through the eighties. It was a bad time for whiskey in general, and G Glen Scotia suffered, but it's still hung on right up until the nineties when Sandy Bullock and the Lalo distillers took it over. And Sandy, pretty much at that time, really was obviously a deny in the stock, not the distillery. There was no real value and no distilleries at that time, it was the stock at that time. So he bought it over and it never really run until 1990. Well, it never run until 1999 in any great significance. So through the eighties there was start stop Gibson, Verne had it again, 89, 90, 91, 92. There was little or no production at that period until we got to 1999. Then it obviously it's, it's been a stable from that period. Yeah, it's quite a checkup history.

Drew (00:36:30):
With that all going on and me looking at this bottle of 15 year Glen Scotia behind me, this is actually something that predates you being there.

Iain (00:36:42):
Yes, yes. I've, I've been here oh 14 kran for 14 years now. So yes,

Drew (00:36:50):
And I bought that about a year ago. So this would've been, what was it like when you first stepped into the place? Did you start as a distillery manager or was somebody was already distilling there?

Iain (00:37:06):
Yes, yes. When I started 31st of March, 2008, there was a Hector, Mr. Hector got who had came from Spring Bank and he was the manager at that time. Hector would be in his seventies and he was really looking to retire. So he was looking for the coverage. As I said, at that time it was good timing in my part it was also David Watson and Jim Grogan, Mr. Jim Grogan. So they were, obviously David was in the Martian gym, was doing the distillation. So there was obviously a huge mountain they climbed. The guys were doing really, really well. It was there, especially in the production side, David, Jim, and probably if or what I know now, if I considered back then I would've maybe thought twice about it. Yeah, quite a challenge.

Drew (00:38:06):
You had a lot of work to do. So when I was there, Archie was pointing out the stainless steel fermenters that you had and that prior to that you had wood fermenters in there, so you had some money to go in and be able to make these improvements. Where did you start?

Iain (00:38:24):
Well, it was quite, well, yeah, I mean the ferment were corto and steel, which was from the 1950s, sixties. So they were incredibly old. It was really just year by year and really the first five years was really spent up the process just looking to where we had to be with Glen Scotia because through the years Glen Scotia, the spirit quality had got quite variable. So that we're really looking to just hammer a lot down and get a bit of stability in there and obviously consolidate what we had here and that really required certain changes. A plant to establish that stability for mentors was a prime example. So really you just got to start the whole process and replace bits that really needing replaced and then work back, you know, work back on that point. The ferment was obviously something that wasn't a necessity in day one, but it was something, I'm trying to think, two years, two years, three years down the line when I started. So same with the condenser. The condenser was obviously a necessity because we started to get holes in it. So that aspect was quite tricky. So

Drew (00:39:59):
When I did this tour, I came in, it was around three o'clock in the afternoon and Archie took us around on the tour and he was very thorough, a lot of process and so it was fun to hear the history part of it here. But as he was showing us around the place, we got to a point where he said, well, I've got to go fill some casks and so I'm going to trade you off to Ian. And that's where we got to meet and I could see your passion for whiskey right off the bat because as we walked in you said, well, you know what, I have some other things I'd like to bring out for you to taste and you were so excited about bringing out, we did an 18 year first Phil bourbon cask there and we also did a heavily ped from 2014. So that was fun to get the taste those, because we think of PED and we think ila. But in kind of discussing with Archie during the tour, he said you actually do three different ped styles and it's not one of your main focuses, but that is something that you do there. And so is that something that you wanted to in incorporate? Was that your decision or were they doing that prior to you being there? Yeah,

Iain (00:41:20):
Well there's always been association with PKIs and Campbellton technically whether you wanted to the early whiskeys to be P or not, they would've certainly had a peak smokiness student to lesser a greater degree as far as happened, Glen Scotia. Glen Scotia again used to have pretty much mid heavily pted, but it pretty much varied between 20 and the uppermost high thirties ppm, which was quite good. The tasks were obviously slightly variable again from certain points, but what we did was from pretty much from the off, we looked at different patent levels and we went from a lightly ped 1% rate up to 20 PPM medium from 20 to 30, and a heavily ped from 30 right up to heavily staff done this 55.4, which seems a lot, but it's how it processed, it's how it goes through the distillation process. Yeah, yeah. And I've got to say some of that stuff first, all bourbon heavily ped, wonderful from the early days, four, five year old stock. Beautiful, beautiful, love it.

Drew (00:42:55):
So what amazes me this, yours was the first tour in Scotland I went on where I got to taste the 70% A B V new make right off of the still. To me, what I tell people about that experience is how I felt like I could have drank it just that way that it was a nice drinkable, even at that high proof, yes, it was probably a little more aggressive than you, a little water would probably be nice to add to it if you were going to drink it that way. But the fruitiness that came out of that new make just absolutely floored me because I'm used to tasting new make that it's going to be, well, especially here with bourbons, you're going to get certain characteristics out of it, but it, it's going to feel unfinished and yet I felt like you could sort of drink this on its own. So there's something that you're doing that's getting all of these fruity notes into your new make without having to put it in a sherry barrel like everybody else is doing to get those fruit notes in it. So what do you attribute your success in getting this great tasting, new make that that's so fruity right off the still?

Iain (00:44:15):
I was going to say that's top secret. I can't tell you, but

Drew (00:44:19):
No other distillers Listen. Yeah,

Iain (00:44:22):
Hey, well, I mean it is, as I say, it's taken an incredible long time. It really has, obviously, as I say, pretty much did five years just to get everything to where it had to be. And obviously the type of, we've got slightly well made things slightly more difficult, traditional rock and pinon type mash. The war is cloudy war. So I'm getting a lot of cloudy warps and obviously the books will tell you you're really looking for nice, clear warts, et cetera. Really for me, as I say, it is really a combination of different things. It really has. And I think if we jump to the end of the story here, what I'm going to mention is I think with you may Spirit, as you mentioned it there, drew, I think that's really important for any distillery, any company, any distiller. I think you've really got to have something that you are happy with at the end of the process that will stand on its own, that you don't necessarily have it in your own mind that I need to put this in a cask.

Iain (00:45:35):
And once it matures after 3, 4, 5, whatever years, then it's obviously going to be slightly more accessible. It should be accessible as soon as it comes off the still and the cask, the time you get it after three, four years in that cask and you go back to it, then it should be wonderful. It should be wonderful. It should really, really be something special. And I think to get new make spirit like that is a huge effort and it's not one particular area you've got to look at. You've got to really look at a lot of different facets. And of course fermentation is a huge part of that. Building up the higher alcohols, acids, everything. And that once you get that right, you're away,

Drew (00:46:33):
You go for a much longer fermentation on it. Is that part of it?

Iain (00:46:38):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm really getting a mix of the short, medium, long fermentation. It's then the end of that 10 mashes a week, which will obviously that's what we do here. We'll do 10 mashes a week, a mash being 2.8 10. So we'll do 10 of these a week. We've got nine wash box, the first wash box we're going to take 70 hours and then that'll work right away up to 140 hours. So it'll give me an average of 128.8 hours. It varies some points, but that gives you a fantastic breadth of different flavors. And once you amalgamate them all, then obviously it is going to come to the end of the week. When you've get 11,000 plus liters of new make spin it, then hopefully that combination that you've obviously manufactured in the different fermentations will give you that wonderful, approachable flavor profile that really, really holds its own. So yeah, there's a lot to it and it's something, it's something you've really just got to work at. You've got to get an understanding of the distillery and question I think really is important.

Drew (00:47:59):
Well, you get a really nice mouth feel out of it as well. We talked about that when we were doing the tasting at the distillery, was that nice kind of oily, kind of a thick mouth feel on a whiskey is part of the pleasure of drinking it. So you don't chill filter?

Iain (00:48:15):
No. Well with 10 notes is some of the coral range used to be. But I think it's something that they're trying to take out. So we should be at pretty much a stage that that's done away with going forward. Yeah.

Drew (00:48:28):
Is there something you do during the distillation process also? Is it shape of pot still or how long that you're distilling that kind of adds maybe to that character?

Iain (00:48:39):
Yeah, I mean absolutely. Obviously Campbelltown, so you're going to get that association, you're going to get salinity, the salinity's going to be in that and you make spirit, but it's going these subtle oils and that's really, it's Campbelltown esque. It's a lot to do with it. The whole process, again, the type of barley it's used, the weights fermented, and of course the distillation, these short squat stills, the, they're Campbelltown, again, Campbelltown esque, but you're getting wonderful contact with the copper and they're not tall stills, but the line arm from still to the condenser is quite long. So again, it's acting if you like, an extension in the stills. So there's a certain amount of reflux going on there too. So it's a combination of what of different aspects they have given you that just perfect, not too overly oily, but just a lovely balance of the oils, the salinity, the flavor profile, nice robustness. Yeah, everything just and great. Yeah.

Drew (00:49:53):
So you talk about the Campbelltown style and it takes me back to a story that I read in the book on Campbelltown that I was reading about, that there was a guy that was pretty much producing all the stills for all of these distilleries. Likely he was making them all similar in size and shape, which would definitely help to create a style. But that he was in the middle of town and he was doing this and apparently when they went in the late 1870s, they were doing some reconstruction and fixing up of the building and they think that there was actually, he was distilling in the basement right in the middle of town. Have you heard that story?

Iain (00:50:39):
That's right. That's, that's it. Yeah. Actually Spoto and that was a Rob Robert Armour, I think it's Robert Arm and son. So they were plumbers right up until the 1970s, eighties kind of period. But he started in about 1812 and he was obviously at that period, he was supplying a lot of illicit small stills, small still as they call them, Elit, distillers and rn, et cetera. But you're right, he had a premises on Main Street and I think they were doing some renovation work in 1890s and I think they uncovered a cellar and they found a small still and the still was basically plumbed into the chimney. So you thought you seen the smoker such coming out with the chimney, he thought his fire. But here he was making a bro good stuff. He was. And see, he practiced what he preached.

Drew (00:51:46):
That's a perfect subterfuge. So I'm going to show you a picture on my phone. Do you recognize that?

Iain (00:51:55):
I do, yes. Yes, absolutely.

Drew (00:51:57):
Your warehouse, your palletized warehouse is my wallpaper on my phone. Wow. Because it, it's one of the few places I've walked into. I had never seen palletized before, so that was the first thing that shocked me. Now I've seen it in several places, but it's always in dark warehouses and you walk into this place and there's light coming down from through the roof and both of your warehouses seem to get a decent amount of light in them. So talk about how you utilize that, because like I say, I've been to a lot of distilleries in Scotland and I've never seen light coming through in these warehouses. They're usually dark.

Iain (00:52:42):
Yeah, well yeah, absolutely. And to be fair, it is that warehouse you've got a picture of, I remember that warehouse when I started and if you seen it when I started, I don't think you'd have it as a wallpaper in your,

Drew (00:52:59):
No.

Iain (00:53:01):
Anyway, things move on and it looks a lot better now. Yeah, I mean at Glen Scotia we keep majority on site. Summit's kept at lock. Loman summit's moved offsite. But we've got basically palletization got rocked warehousing, we've got the damage. And I was always a big of the rocks, the modern asbestos, ugly building was wonderful, really used to build up a fantastic temperature grading and the casks at the top of the rock and the roof, roof space, et cetera. Some of these tasks for me, really, really what and still do and some of the best tasks. And it was always a bit skeptical about politicization, but recently a lot of the stuff I've getting there is the picture you've got coming to coming on four or five year old now. And yeah, I'm happy. I'm happy. Yeah, I'm happy that obviously the quality of the casks and the new make in these casts, obviously whiskey now is working well and it's a lovely set. And the light, the light's an added bonus through it obviously gives it quite a, at times the sl, the other side's actually under slate, stone slate and Sarkin, which is wood and it's a lot darker. And that's your traditional roof, but not side's obviously a modern finish on it, which obviously is it probably more pleasing to lie when you get in there cause it's like a cathedral of whiskey.

Drew (00:54:53):
It is. That's exactly what it looks like. It's fantastic. But then you have, so these two different warehouses, how do you strategize what goes in one place versus what goes into the other?

Iain (00:55:07):
I'll put some Pete into the rocks, warehouses and rocks. I'll apologize some medium P. So I'll pretty much work with different sections, different tasks, a lot of it to be fair and a lot of what I'm doing is potentially more experimental. So you'll specifically put certain tasks in certain areas and see how they do. And that could go with not even bourbon, it could be for finishing casks, which more so I tend to put in the rocking to be fair. Or it could be new making to second fill orso a second, fill PX casks and the damage. So really just having a play about and see how they work and see what the flavor profile is and see what the results are. And I've got to say that the majority of what I'm experiencing, and to be fair, it's only the last few weeks I've really managed to get back in a lot of this, taking samples of the guys, Archie and Jacks taking me samples to be fair. So yeah, a lot of these samples are, yeah, I'm very pleased with them early days, but they're coming along just fantastic. So it's good to see you

Drew (00:56:30):
Do a lot of experimentation

Iain (00:56:34):
As much as I can. It'd be fair, I like to look at different finishes and obviously the wider group there will be Botlands festival bottoms, et cetera, which are available worldwide. But a lot of the smaller botlands for me could be a single cask and there they're specifically from the distillery, they take my bottlings tend to be slightly more robust, slightly higher strength, et cetera. So probably more aimed towards someone who's really into something more combo to an Es Scotia esque. But yeah, it's good. It's good. And as I say, every day's a school day, even for me, you're learning,

Drew (00:57:26):
Always learning. I say I've been to over 130 distilleries and I still learn something every distillery I go to. It's like, wow, okay, that makes much more sense now because I, I'm putting pieces together and figuring it out. So I amazes me how somebody can go from here in the US we have Moonshine University, people can go for a couple of weeks, learn everything there is about distilling and then they're set off on their own. And you're thinking how after all of this, there's a lot of trial and error that goes into it. It helps to have a mentor really to be there with you when you're learning all of this stuff.

Iain (00:58:11):
It does hang is important. And for me, I've been incredibly lucky at Glen Scotia because obviously John, but John was never on site. He was always Alexandria and Glasgow. So I've pretty much been a lone entity at Glens Scotia and I don't think I could work any other way now because I've been not long in long doing one thing.

Drew (00:58:38):
Yes.

Iain (00:58:39):
Yeah, wonderful.

Drew (00:58:41):
So when I was doing my reading on the area and we were talking about experimentation, I kept coming across Scottish Bear and I couldn't understand what is Scottish bear. And then as I was reading another book, it explained that it was a smaller grain of barley. You think there would ever be a chance that you would experiment with some of the local and maybe answer this too on your Pete, is your Pete that you're using local or are you, you're sourcing that right now from malting houses?

Iain (00:59:18):
Yeah, yeah. I pretty much use, since I started Atland Scotia, I've followed suit that I've used the same monster. So all my barley comes from. And again that helps me, that continuity, that guaranteed call is what I'm trying to do here at the moment, really important. So that is fundamental for me. It's all Scottish, it's all grown in Perthshire. So it comes from the east coast of Scotland. The Pete, if I was getting a ped one comes from the same and it comes from slightly further north Adenia that Pete comes from, obviously Pete Cotton and such is they my environmental trade off for that. So you've really got to be careful where it's coming from and what you're doing with it, et cetera. So there's a lot to consider there.

Iain (01:00:22):
Well as I say, the whole aspect is really for me as I say that is that continuity. So regarding Local Valley, if I wanted to potentially have a farmer grow me some barley here obviously, cause I can't malt on on site in Glen Scotia that stopped in the 1950s, so it would probably need to go offsite and go to that same and come back to me. It's something I would love to do and it's something probably I will do at some point. But as I say it, it's a lot to consider there. It really is that our distant, it really need to make sure it would work from a flavor point of view. It undoubtedly wouldn't work from a financial point of view for me, probably the logistics, but it would be really, really interesting to do extra

Drew (01:01:25):
Special bottle. Yeah. I wonder what the difference in the taste of it. Have you ever tasted Scottish Bear to see if there's a flavor difference between that and the regular barley?

Iain (01:01:36):
Yeah, I'm trying to think. I think, bro, I it's lar I might be wrong saying that, but yeah, I can remember something in the back of recesses in my mind that there's been quite a lot of that. And even Spring Bank with a local barlett, it's got a fantastic following and yeah, it is something that appeals to me really, really floats my boat. I think it's fantastic that if you grow something and can tie, and as I say, barley and canta, it's always going to be difficult to get a really good crop of any huge, significant, you can't do it. There's a lot of farmers, really good farmers and who are producing quite a lot of barley, which obviously a lot of it'll go elsewhere, but it is always going to be a tricky one. It really is. But Bay, yeah, I mean there's obviously, historically there was a book written by a, I think it's a pacey, it might be a William Pacey, I might be wrong, but he was a customs officer in Campbelltown back in the early days when the whiskey industry was taken off. And he wrote a small section in Campbelltown and I think it was really his memoir, his career drew. But I think he had quite a challenging time in Campbelltown because I think he found it the local populous of the local distillers, well as he put it with the watching because they were try and there was different rates of duty in bear or barley and they would obviously try and pass barley off as bear, which was, you'd obviously pay less for that. So I think it had to keep an eye on these couns.

Drew (01:03:38):
Well, I think as lovers of history, the thing that gets in my head is that experiencing what they experienced back then, what were the flavors they were tasting, we have the distilleries there and trying to recreate history in a bottle is really a fun idea

Iain (01:04:00):
As, and then that was, that's another story, a dear lady who passed away there recently and she was introduced to me, I knew her vaguely really, but she was introduced to me with Mr. Angus Martin and the local historian, fantastic guy. And this a chance to read these books, advise everyone to read these books. He's wonderful history, I canta. But he introduced me to this, a lovely lady. And to cut a long story short, the lovely lady basically came into the office one day and she had a bottle, it was an old bottle, but it was basically full of clear Lakewood and I knew the story of where she stayed, et cetera. And I knew roughly that there was an old historical connection there. So this bottle, the cork was deteriorated. So there was obviously quite a lot of lawsuit. It was kind of three quarters full the bottle. But I tasted it and I knew straightaway it was new Meg spirit spin it.

Drew (01:05:06):
Huh.

Iain (01:05:07):
Anyway, so I took a sample of it, I said, could I take a small sample of this? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I sent it away to the Scottish Whiskey Research Institute in Edinburg. It was Dr. James Bronin. And it wasn't a huge sample, but he said we can draw some conclusions from it scientifically, chemically looking at this sample and that this sample. So this bottle, from what we can ascertain was probably some of the last distillate, you may spin it run from Lockhead Distillery, Lockhead Distillery from one of these distilleries. It closed in 1928 if memory serves me right. Wow. And basically this bottle had come down to this lovely lady. Yeah. So I basically tasted you make spirits from 19

Drew (01:06:03):
Old, new, make old, new. What was your experience with it? Were there any eye-opening notes that came out of it?

Iain (01:06:13):
Yeah, I mean, and I think to be fair, it was quite hard to ascertain because I think it lost a lot his volatility through the oxidization, et cetera, with the atmosphere. And I try to think back many, many occasions and if I can't even remember now what it tasted like.

Drew (01:06:36):
Yeah, I know. I wish we could take a snapshot of our experience and be able to come back to it. Yeah, that's kind of the same thing, tasting stuff there, I was like, I'm trying to recall what did this taste, what did that taste like? And unless you just write it down really quick.

Iain (01:06:52):
Oh, I think I was out override by the occasion. I forgot. I totally forgot. I think it wonderful, but I can't remember. But the document it back from Dr. James and his team, his assistant was wonderful. And that it really highlighted, and this was really important thing for me, it really highlighted a lot of similarities between what went on in the 1920s in what goes on now. So remarkably similar, remarkably similar

Drew (01:07:26):
I, I've tasted some a hundred year old aged whiskey, some bourbons. And what you find is, again, you get a lot of, well you're getting a lot of wood characteristics that taste a little different. And I think I just like to say it's an old flavor. It's like those casks back then for some reason seem to give off a lot more of that warehouse kind of a experience. It's like you're drinking the angel share and it's a fun experience and they're so rich, those whiskeys. And I don't know if it's because they've evaporated a bit or what, but they just have a mouth feel to them. Wonderful.

Iain (01:08:14):
Yeah. Right. And there's so many I've tasted, well, not so many, but there's a few I've tasted from the sixties, especially in the wonderful, wonderful, balanced, tropical, real tropical exotic, tropical fruit aspect, which is unbelievable. A lot of them. And Glen Scotia is no different. A lot of them's slightly different than what you get presently, but you wonder what we make this now, will that follow the same routine? Maybe not. Yeah. And I think that's what makes whiskey fascinating, drew, is the different aspects of even one distillery, nevermind all the distilleries that we've got in the Orleans.

Drew (01:09:04):
Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah, absolutely. So it's 9:00 AM here.

Iain (01:09:10):
My goodness, this is the

Drew (01:09:10):
Early, I've poured a whiskey in a heck of a long time, but this is the 15 year. So how excited are you for, because is 15 your flagship? Would you say that's the flagship?

Iain (01:09:25):
Yeah, yeah, you're right. I would probably say that the 15 year old is closest to that distillery style. So you've really got a Campbelltown esque style there. The way it's put together, there's a mix of casks, some refill, bourbon refill, American Oak, you know, could finish that. And festival bourbon, a short kind of ma if you like even. But you're obviously getting that bourbon synergy coming through there and again into a short or also again finish for a matter of weeks potentially. So it is a complex strong as Campbelltown tends to be. It's got the robustness, it's got the oiliness, but importantly it's got a fantastic flavor profile and that really carries it through, you know, get citrus notes, this orange peel, this ginger beautiful mouth fill there, which obviously really carries that drum on.

Drew (01:10:40):
I get a sweet cherry flavor in there too. And I was trying to put, you said orange peel and I was I trying to put my finger on, was it blood orange, was it tangerine? You definitely get that citrus coming through on this. And I have to admit, when I bought this bottle I was nervous and the reason I was nervous was because I said I enjoyed that new make so much that after 15 years in the bourbon cask, I'm thinking, is that fruitiness? Is this, is it going to jump off the page like, but it does. It absolutely does. From the nose all the way through to the finish it, it's a very pleasing whiskey. Very, very fruity. In fact, I'll tell you that I will use this during, if I do tastings with people and we we're going through scotch whiskeys, I will usually put this as an option at the end here as to whether you are into the more fruity whiskeys or you want to go to the smoke. Because to me, this is kind of like the other end of the spectrum. This really gives you what you kind of expect to get out of space side whiskeys that very Sherry fruit, but you're coming out of American barrels rather than coming out of Sherry Barrels.

Iain (01:12:02):
And it's a very good point. You're absolutely spot on there, drew. And probably as Campbelltown goes, is getting to the lighter end of that robustness for sure. So I, I've very much been flavor driven with the fermentations, et cetera, Glen Scotia. But yeah, it is interesting what you can do though. Absolutely. With different tasks, with different finishes. It is quite remarkable how you can give it slightly more body, more robustness there, which really dials it down a not shut too. But that whiskey for me is fantastic. If you want to represent Glen Scotia Campbelltown and get an insight into the distillery through that wonderful flavor profile, which is complex. The casks is, there's a lot going on there. But yeah, it's steady, easy drink, isn't it? And that

Drew (01:13:10):
That's it is, yeah. It's even at nine o'clock in the morning. I'm cheating a bit. Yes. Well, fantastic, Ian, I really appreciate you going through the history and I so enjoyed my visit there and I'm glad to get to share with the audience a little bit of that experience through the power of the internet. And thank you so much. I look forward to an opportunity to talk with you again sometime in the future.

Iain (01:13:38):
Absolutely. As I say, it's great to catch up, you drew and you're always welcome. It's, Campbelltown is always welcoming, as I say to yourself and your friends or whoever, and especially Glen Scotia, we're love to see you again. And yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me on. It's been great to chat with you and talk about camp Tone, sir. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.

Drew (01:14:03):
And if you want to learn more about Glen Scotia, head to glen scotia.com and to hear the history of Campbelltown, remember to check out the Whiskey Lore podcast available on your favorite podcast app or@whiskey-lore.com. And there you'll also find show notes, transcripts, hoodies, tasting kits, and links to whiskey lores social media. That's all@whiskey-lore.com. Make sure you're subscribed to this podcast as well because next week I'm going to be celebrating the 25th anniversary of Woodford Reserve with master distiller Chris Morris. We're going to take a deep dive into bourbon history and also do some tasting of a special bottling. That's next Wednesday here on whiskey lore, the interviews. I'm your host, Hamish. Have a great week, and until next time, cheers and SL Ofk Whiskey Lords of Production of Travel Fuel's Life, L L C.