Ep. 69 - At the Forefront of a New Breed of Irish Distilleries

Transcript

Drew (00:00:09):
Welcome to whiskey lore, the interviews, I'm your host, Drew Hannush, the Amazon bestselling author of whiskey Lores travel guide to experience in Kentucky bourbon. And I am back from my mammoth 24 day 40 distillery tour of Ireland and Northern Ireland. If you follow me on instagram.com/whiskey lore, you've seen my first week of my journey and I'm going to keep posting more and more images from that tour and telling some stories. And I'm trying to do it in real time. So you can see how many distilleries I actually went to visit over that short period of time and how intense each of the days were. And I learned a whole lot during my travels, a lot more about Irish whiskey than I ever thought. I would know. I am going to release over the next couple of months. Some things that will help you understand Irish whiskey and where it's at right now, as well as it's past, I'll be releasing a travel book about Irish whiskey that was written from my own experiences.

Drew (00:01:12):
I'm gonna have a historical series on the whiskey lore stories podcast that is gonna invite you along on my historic trip, as well as taking you on a journey with another famous distillery Explorer from 135 years ago, and stay tuned for more information on that. Along with catching up with some past episodes of whiskey lore stories from season five, they were put on the shelf for a little while, but I'm re-releasing them every throwback Thursday. And so check those out. If you are not subscribed to whiskey lo stories, make sure to do that as well. And this week I'm gonna be releasing an episode that dives into the idea that the Irish may have brought whiskey to Scotland as early as the sixth century. And that'll be in the Camptown episode. So check that out on whiskey Lore's stories, but today I've got a special treat for you because I'm gonna share with you a discussion I had in Dublin with one of the members of the new breed of Irish distillery owners, a man who along with his brother brought distilling back to the city of Dublin, the place where his distant relative Walter Teeling once owned the Marone lane distillery and a city who well, it was really the gold standard for whiskey distillation in the world.

Drew (00:02:36):
In the 19th century. The person I'm talking about is Jack Teeling the co-founder of Teeling distillery. And during the next hour, I'm gonna dive into his experiences in working along with his father at Cooley distillery, the challenges he faced in trying to show people there was more to Irish whiskey than just Jameson and Bushmills and will also dive into his experiences and starting up the Teeling brand and building that distillery and carving out a whole new path for an industry that had been monopolized for way too long by one company. So let's go ahead and dive right into my conversation with Jack Teeling of Teeling distillery, Jack, welcome to the show.

Jack (00:03:18):
Thank you very much.

Drew (00:03:19):
It's great to be here in Dublin Knight. It's I say welcome. And then I'm in your place you know, having the conversation with you on your own turf, which is yeah, this, this is a lot of fun to, to travel around and get, get a chance to, to meet the people behind the whiskey. So

Jack (00:03:38):
What delight have you in delight to have you in Dublin and in the liberties and in the tea whiskey distillery?

Drew (00:03:43):
Yeah, I, I really have enjoyed my time driving around and I got a chance actually to meet your father at great Northern distillery and what a guy, I mean, he's what I love is that after meeting him and then driving around the island and then his name would come up, that you get that same reverence for who he is, what he's gone through and and what he's done, what, what's it like being the, the son of of a man who's that revered in the industry?

Jack (00:04:19):
Well, yeah, it's I wouldn't be in the industry if it wasn't for my father, as I think a lot of people wouldn't be in the industry, if it wasn't for, for what he did and the vision he had back in the seventies and eighties what he did with Cooley distillery, which at the time, you know, everyone thought he was mad because the category was, was nowhere, you know, was very stagnant and no one could see the opportunity and I'm sure he'll say it himself. He had to leave the country to open his eyes to what Irish whiskey could be, but he battled through and, you know I grew up around all the, the challenges and so forth. And, but, you know, I suppose I didn't really understand his impact on, on not just on whiskey, but on the Irish business industry until I went to university college, Dublin, where he had been a lecturer in commerce and I was doing commerce. And just the amount of, of, of, of, you know, his impact in the university alone mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then when I went out to, into the business world, <laugh> you know, some, everyone had been lectured to him or had some interactions with him, or he was well known. And I either worked in my favor or didn't I remember I was doing a job interview and you know, the guy was talking, he goes, oh yeah, I was lecture boy, your father. And yeah, he failed me.

Jack (00:05:36):
No, I was like, OK. So, so yeah, I didn't get that job. Yeah. But and then I suppose I got my, you know, start in, in the industry after fluffing around a little bit in finance and, and being an Australian coming back I got to work with him or for him back in, in, I suppose at the stage of Cooley's evolution of surviving some very tough days. And particularly in the nineties, when, you know again, I was reminiscing with when my dad about it when the bank called the loans and all the different things and challenges that they went through and they were coming at the other side when AK was really beginning to take off in key markets like the us. So I never really, besides from, at a personal level, I didn't see from a business perspective, the challenges and all the, the, the hardships that go with building something from scratch, and then particularly at a time when the category was there.

Jack (00:06:30):
But you know, I, I, I, as I said, I got my chance to work with him and learn a lot about just the entrepreneurial nature of, of how he did things and, and I suppose what Cooey was doing right. And, you know, what it was maybe not doing so. Right. Yeah. And, and, and seeing first round how the category could evolve. But, you know, I think there's been two phases of, I suppose, John's impact on, on the industry. One was setting up coolly, breaking monopoly, and, and, and surviving. And, and, and I suppose in 2012 was another thing was that I think it opens people's eyes to, you actually can make money out of Irish whiskey as well. And, and it, there was, it led to a, another kind of, I suppose, spurt in terms of the evolution and, and of the category, because I think if Kudi was only there before, and I'm not sure if, if things would've been quite as quick to mushroom in terms of the newer entrance.

Jack (00:07:25):
And I think by selling cooi, it opened, you know people's eyes and entrepreneurs all over the country, started looking at it a different way. And, and also realizing you have to build their own distilleries rather than source it from Cooley. Right. And now he's come back in with great Northern distillery, and he's adding that ability to get whiskey you know, for newer entrance that are coming in now, so they can get into the market now as well. So, so he's had a massive role to play. You know, we, people say he's the godfather of Irish whiskey. He probably is <laugh>. Yeah. But he's still my father. Yeah. So, so it's, it was an interesting working experience working with him. And I suppose I people say, oh, I, I was lectured by your father. I've been lectured by my father for 45 years.

Jack (00:08:06):
It's all good and bad things that, and but you know, I, I, I was lucky to have the, the 10 plus years in Cooley, but I was definitely when, when the opportunity to go out on my own, I think I, I had a desire to do it and the desire to do something different and, and desire to build on some of the great things that he'd done, but to, to try, try from a different lens. And that was to be a very much brand focused whiskey obviously production yeah. Is in my blood and where it came from, but to try and you know, build it from a brand building perspective. And, and that was quite different. So you build a distillery and you focus on production, and then you kind of figure out what, what the brand's gonna be afterwards. Or you can say, well, this is the brand and everything else has to flow. This is why we're doing things. And that's the approach. We took back in 2012 when we sell the teaming whiskey distillery.

Drew (00:08:56):
So, so what was your, because you were, when you were with Cooley, you were actually traveling around, I guess, and trying to open up markets here and there. What was that early perception of Irish whiskey? Do you think, was there, was there a feeling that Irish whiskey is Jameson? It, it is 40% alcohol. It is triple distilled. Well, and, and that, that, that's what it was. And that's what it's always kind of gonna be.

Jack (00:09:24):
Yeah, it was very interesting because the category was, was, was quite mature in Europe. But you know, you would've thought the us was a mature, but it wasn't, it was going through this new growth, new energy. And that was really been driven by Sen. And that's just the way it was that's, you know, we could say otherwise, but wasn't, and at that stage, it was all benchmark to JSON. And then they were saying, is Irish whiskey the growth? Or is Jamson the grow it's a bit like, is it, is it Baileys or is it cream cures? So, so, you know, and I think there was, at some stage, it was probably more Jensen mm-hmm <affirmative> just because they had done so much brand seeding and development work in the nineties, and they were really cultivating it into the two thousands. And when you were there going, oh, we're Irish whiskey and this, and they were, they would take you back to Jefferson and say, well, that's a benchmark.

Jack (00:10:14):
And, and Kudi was an outlier because we doubled distilled. Mm. And like, people just didn't get that. Yeah. They were like, okay, well, they, they're all marketing triple distilled. And that's kind of what people are now. This is the modern perception what Irish whiskey, but, but you're double distilled. Hmm. But your double is still, and what, where we were doing well was, was more about, you know, I think we're struggling going head to head with Jemison, with Coben. Coben has all this rich heritage and stories. And I'm sure, I'm sure you've been there. You've seen it.

Drew (00:10:41):
I love that distill,

Jack (00:10:42):
You know, it's just a step back in time, very much unique brand and experience. And but sometimes that was hard to communicate as old, old, old to younger consumers. And also, you know, some of the legacy price points that we had was, you know, we were going slightly below Genson and the quality in the story just didn't, you know, was better than that. But you know, was that decision that were made early and Cooley to try and justify why people would buy something new or different within the category. And where we were doing well was more around single mals and, and, you know, in mature markets were single mals were doing our, our single mals, like econom, single mals, or to account single mals things like that were doing quite well. We also then had the, the private label, the, you know, bulk business and, and, you know, we were working with trying to stimulate trade players to see the opportunity for Irish whiskey.

Jack (00:11:35):
So in other, we were trying to develop our own brands, but we were trying to sell the opportunity, Irish whiskey, too, other people that would maybe want to develop their own brand of Irish whiskey, little, like what we did with Sydney, Frank, who created the Michael Collins, Irish whiskey brand. They had done a, a very successful job with gray goose in terms of criminalization of, of vodka. They had taken a lot of money off the table and they were looking at different categories. And I remember we, we had a, like a deck, a sales deck sent it to to them when myself and my father were going over to, I don't know, we were doing some meeting with some partners over in, in the us, and we got the meeting with them and sold them on the opportunity, what our shoes school be, and they bought into it.

Jack (00:12:16):
But you know, I think they probably didn't understand whiskey at that time. And so the, the assumptions didn't translate from, you know, premium, wide spirits into premium brown spirits. But yeah, I, I learned a lot through that process in that, you know, you can be a very good company with, you know, being very successful, but, you know, I suppose we had our own unique insights of what arch whiskey, you know, the challenges and opportunities around that. So, yeah. So I took that as that you can, you know, never, never be intimidated by big companies because you, if you have enough insights, you know, the category, right. Well, you know, trust, trust your own opinions and believe in it. Because I know we had recommended some things to them, but they were very adamant that they had this idea. And you know, I thought the name and the packaging and all that just kind of jarred a little bit where the opportunity was, but yeah. Okay. Okay. <Laugh> yeah.

Drew (00:13:08):
Well, it's, it's interesting to think of when Japanese whiskey took off yeah. That you would find Japanese whiskey kind of nestled in beside scotch. Yep. And and I'm thinking back to those early days on the shelves with Irish whiskey that, you know, we're sectioning off bits of the store for different countries. And then Irish whiskey just has Jameson that has Jameson Bushmills and red breast pops in, but that you really like American single mal is dealing with right now, where do you fit in the store and how do you snag space away from scotch whiskey and let people know that there's something new. Is that a real struggle for you?

Jack (00:13:54):
Oh, it was, it was always case. And still it is, I'll be honest with, you're still not there. It's lot better than where it was when we started, but, you know, again I'm sure you've heard this before. You will hear from my father you know, but if you take a big like Aster liquors in, in, in New York, or you think about bin's or specs, or, you know, any of these, you know, long established, you know, large retail retailers in the us, and for, for long time you go in and it would be that little square of Irish whiskey that would be normally attached to, you know, either single malls or rest the world, or even Canadian. You know, a lot of, a lot of times, even now you'll be grouped in with, with, with kind of

Drew (00:14:36):
World whiskeys or

Jack (00:14:37):
Something. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, we always felt there was a need to create a category because at sues Jefferson Jensen, you know, in a way when you're a brand you want to, it's all about the brand and, and not necessarily the category, I think that's changed, but what the suit in back then they they've seen now, obviously they need to have a ladder of different expressions to, to cater for people who want to discover something new and also to let them criminalize their offering. But back then it was, you know, it was tiny and even good bars, even Irish, Irish pubs in the us, like just really per selection of Irish whiskey, very, very true per choice. But reality was, there was very few producers. Yeah. So, you know, there was, there was, you know, arch Steelers PCard you had Bush mills, you know, which was Dio and you know, ourselves andt Jew, obviously with, with, with grants came along.

Jack (00:15:33):
So there just wasn't necessarily the vibrancy that would've been in, like single mals or stuff like that that were, you know, much more diverse and lot of choice. So, so if you were having a lot of different offerings there, you know, a lot of them were pretty Sammy. Yeah. And at the same price point, and it was all at the blended area. And the reality was that had to change and, and someone will have to change that. And I think we were seeing what was working Cooley in terms of, at a consumer level people buying into was the innovation, trying different things and, you know, different styles and all that sort. So rather than necessarily just another blended Irish whiskey. Yeah. and we were finding, we were doing stuff with our tear coing and malls with different cast finishes and all that sort stuff.

Jack (00:16:14):
It was really kind of exciting consumers. Probably more so in Europe than in the us, just cuz we struggled in the us to, to find a good partner that was gonna do it or a good partner that was, was, could see the opportunity outside of the blended area. Cause well, the car was so blended and that's 95% of sales kind of that's where you have to put your energy. But there was an opportunity to start, you know, presenting Irish whiskey in a different way to get people kind of excited. And you know, at that stage it was the beginning of the, you know, emergence of let's say bartenders and everything else who was, you know, were interested if you, if, if you had something good from a liquid perspective with that story around as well. So, so it was starting on, I suppose we were always Prema ization, we're talking with that in terms of Irish whiskey, but I think we're probably ahead of our time.

Jack (00:17:06):
Because the growth engine was still in that blended area. There was still so much growth to go and so many new consumers to come in. If the premiumization were really going after not really Irish whiskey drinkers, you're going after other premium, you know, single mall drinkers, which were scotch drinkers. So you're nearly presenting Irish whiskey as an alternative to scotch rather than necessarily this is an Irish whiskey. You like Jensen or something like that. Now try something else. Or if you're coming into Irish whiskey, you know, you don't have to come in through the, the market leaders. There's other options that are there. So yeah. But so I don't think the market was necessarily ready. But it definitely isn't now. And it's it, it's kind of, I think the energy, as you can see in like American whiskey. So, so it was funny, it was all Scott, Scott scotch and, and you know, for the last 10, 15 years now, it's all American American American.

Jack (00:17:52):
So <laugh>, so what's happened is, is, you know, the vibrancy that was maybe in, when I started in scotch, single mals has come into American, you know, basically whiskeys of all kinds. And there's walls and walls of American, still walls of scotch. And there's a growing, you know, selection. Like, you know, the last time I was in a large bins in California or in Chicago, Doza a full shelf of, of Irish whiskey. A lot of it still still semi Sammy, but you know, growing, you know, range of, of interesting and unique Irish whiskeys. And I really do believe now that as the whiskey's own spirit comes of age that diverse kind of full, you know, breadth of flavors and, and, and stories and, and unique offerings will really help capture an imagination and interest in it because you need that difference in liquid.

Jack (00:18:46):
Yeah. You know, it's hard when every whiskey, you know, is from MGP or from, you know, from Cooley or from G and D to, to sometimes drive deep, ongoing engagement. Yeah. But also to ensure that people can build brands in sustainable way so that they know that they have that liquid coming behind and you know can, can have the engagement with consumers when they come to their distilleries and go in and, and, and, you know, they can tell their story as well. So, so it's a really interesting evolution and time in, in the, the history of Irish whiskey. It really truly is a new golden era. Yeah. And long may continue. Yeah. And you know, even coming through to the challenges of COVID, it's amazing to see the growth in 2011 or 2021 when, when things came back. So it bodes well for the future, you know, of Irish whiskey on a global basis, rather than maybe just a handful of, of large markets like the

Drew (00:19:43):
Us. Yeah. So did you know that your father was gonna sell? And how did you take that once? I mean, you're, I worked for a company in 2002 that decided to sell out yeah. To another corporation and my position was redundant and I was jettison. Yeah. And I had to make a decision. What was I gonna do? Was I gonna go look for another job? Was I gonna start my own business at that point? And I never considered myself an entrepreneur yet entrepreneurs, what I sort of got pushed into in a way it was like somebody had to shove me out into the, into the water and, and make me go and try to swim and, and make it on my own. What was your experience coming out? Where did, was it first? Was it a surprise? And second of all, did you immediately know where you wanted to go?

Jack (00:20:36):
And I suppose the truth was coolly was always for sale.

Drew (00:20:39):
Okay.

Jack (00:20:41):
It was nearly sold loads times. But you know, it never happened. And because it happened so many times every time someone came knock on the door, the view was it wasn't gonna happen. <Laugh> yeah. So, so, you know, it was, and, and Kudi was a public limited company PLC, so had lots of shareholders. So it wasn't like you know, just us have making decision. You have to be responsible for all the shareholders, the smallest guy to the largest guys. And you know, I think a lot of the shareholders and even the managers and, and, you know, my father and the senior management teams were, were scarred by some of the challenges that they had, like along the way, cuz it was tough, like really tough. Yeah. In the nineties. And it could even feel that the organization was, was, was, was damaged in a way from the, the, the challenges and, and we were coming out of it and things were good.

Jack (00:21:32):
Yeah. but cuz they were the only way into the category, you know, they were what people were talking. So, so all the way along, I actually started in 2000 and, and one, two or wherever it was because grants had come in and tried to buy or there was a Angus stir, like it was, and, and what had happened was people left. So there's a big gap in the organization because people had left saying, I don't want to, you know, be a, a small cog and all that sort of stuff. So I, I came in would've view that Vaku was in the process of being sold and never happened. <Laugh> and then I was, I like the LA LA last man standing. So I kind of ended up, you know, filling holes and I suppose that's how I got my opportunities in it.

Jack (00:22:13):
And then I kind of evolved with but it was never like, you know a physical process to decided we put up for sale, but if people came knocking, it would be engaged with and so forth. So, so I think in 2010, 11, when, when the industry was doing, you know, quite well, there was a lot of people talking to us like there was, and again, I'm not talking outta school, but LVMH and all these guys, they saw the opportunity for, they wanted to find a way into it. Yeah. And you know, there was lots of talk around that it was very, you know, find it very distracting, but it was always, ah, no, no one's gonna happen grands or stone, just keep doing what you're doing on logo. So, okay. Yeah. So you keep saying, no one's gonna happen, but feels like there's something happen.

Jack (00:22:55):
So it went a long way and I think my, my, my father was difficult kind in a guy to do, cuz he obviously a lot of emotional connection, a lot of baggage with it and, and was, is a difficult guy to get the deal done and beam and the, the people involved they played the game quite well in terms of working with him and having someone sitting there. So it didn't any problems got dealt. Yeah. Normally was the problems I, that happened that's it it's over <laugh> and walk away. So, so it all kind of was, was passion. And I swear to God, I was running the business as best as possibly can. And, and with the view that, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, this has happened before nothing's gonna happen. So when it did actually happen, it was, it was quite a shock.

Jack (00:23:35):
I'll be honest with you. And but I'd been saying, because of all the talk I'd be kind of mentally preparing if something had happened, what do I want to do? Yeah. Where would I go? Would I do something different? You know? Oh yeah. Okay. All those things I was kind of thinking about and I had done a part-time master's, you know focusing on Cooley and how I do things differently and there's lots of learnings I had about that. And I'd only got pushed into the, kind of the leadership role in 2010 and we were doing a lot of things that I could see that was gonna be beneficial for the long term. And it felt like, you know, when, when the deal was formalized a lot of that was undone. Like, you know, I hadn't accomplished yeah. What I thought I wanted to do.

Jack (00:24:18):
And I felt like, you know, a lot of unfinished business and I, and I, I suppose I also wanted to prove that I, I could do something myself and take all those learnings that I had, you know, internalized over the last number of years and apply it to a new venture. So, so when the deal was, was, was, was basically now. So I remember when we had the, the president of, of be Inc came over to our, our offices and they were talking about all these great opportunities. And I basically said, look with these deals done. I'm not staying and that's simplest that. So, so don't plan for yeah. Plan very with me and, you know it just felt like the right thing to do because I, I never want to, to work as a small cog and a big multinational, you know, that, wasn't why I was working with my father and so forth.

Jack (00:25:02):
So, so it's kind hard when you're in a very flat organization, you're kind of in control of everything to kind of you know, jump into a large organization. So, so it was, it was definitely the right decision for me, but I think what I was lucky was that my, my father helped us get, you know, basically head of HOA heads of agreement on getting supply whiskey, which then there could be no non-compete cuz it was gonna be a customer and all that kind of stuff like that. So it kind of helped me find a way out. Yeah. and you know, all I had to do then was, you know, four months kind of handover sort of period, but it was kind of a weird time cuz the actual, when we found out exactly Kudi was being sold because it has to go to the board and they have to approve and they were board meeting, all this sort of stuff like that.

Jack (00:25:52):
I was actually in the pre-labor ward in ho street here, which is a maternity hospital, national maternity for my second child. And back then we were blackberries and all that sort stuff, I guess. So I was in this ward with, you know, lots of other ladies and all that. And my wife you know, going through the, the, all the stuff you have to do and there and I kept looking at my thing and you're not meant to have mobile phones at all. Cause, and it was around two half, two in the morning when I got an email coming through, the deal is done and it was just, wow. It was just really, it was just brought to home and I was bit all over the place anyway, but I was totally all over the place. <Laugh> having this going on at the same time as, as literally Natalie cheating, arriving into the world.

Jack (00:26:34):
So, wow. So it was a very surreal time for me and I suppose that the next couple of weeks and so forth after I was kind of yeah, kind of unusual shock. Yeah, yeah. Unusual that you're kind of dealing with new, new newborn baby and you know, doing the final bits of Ji and all that stuff we were doing. It didn't actually transpired that the deal was, was actually formally done in terms of money being paid and all that early in 2012. And then, you know, as you said, I stayed on for a couple of months and then ended my association at the end of April of 2012 and literally took a couple of weeks off, went to the west coast America with my young family and then came back and went straight to London. The London wine S show went to see actual the designers that we ended up using for the team whiskey branding and so forth. And the Heineken cook final for lens it's rugby anyway. Yeah. <Laugh> and that was the start of it. And then, you know, the journey really went from there.

Drew (00:27:30):
Nice. And so did you always want to call it teeing? Did you play around with names? Well, no, no.

Jack (00:27:37):
This is the truth. November, 2011 heads of agreement had to be signed, done very quickly, literally put in 24 hours. And I was like, oh, what I need a name for the heads of agreement team was the company. Yeah. The company hadn't even even formed us, which was a name. Yeah. so that was it. And, and I really didn't know what I wanted to do from a brand perspective and, and, and calling a whiskey after yourself for an Irish person is, is kind of UN UN uncomfortable. Yeah. Just because it seems egotistical. And, and I remember saying to my friends and they were flagging the hell of me. And again, it was, there was a tenuous link to water healing and so forth, you know, knew about it, kind of like, you know, and it was only then we, we, you know, after I was leaving beam, we got someone to do the research on it and, and mapped out the, the distillery, you know, and all that kind of stuff like that.

Jack (00:28:35):
And it started making sense and started gauging with some, some new partners and all that. And I was like, we were like, oh, thinking about maybe, you know, doing what we did and cool to get an old brand name and relaunch you. And they were like, well, do you not have your own history? And why can't you call it this? And it was like, so people were saying it to us, so it didn't feel like it was a bad thing to do. And also I think there was a bit of baggage would, you know, you sell a company and you lose a lot of partners or distributors have lost brands. And they were like, oh, you are just, you also want to sell your company. You're not long term, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So we wanted to do something to, to build back the trust as well. And we felt that the Teeling name, even from the Cooey days had some sort of let's say Providence, or, you know, credibility, let's say rather than

Drew (00:29:21):
Providence. Right. You're you're not gonna name it after yourself and then go pedal your name off to somebody else.

Jack (00:29:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is this kind of a mentality. So, so then as I said done the research and so forth, then it just felt right. Yeah. but we had, like, I had registered other brand names and different things like that and I different concepts around, you know, whiskey bonders from Dublin and all that kind of stuff like that to try and do it. I suppose, again, it was kind of like a Cooley kind of stuff that we had saved all brands and but, but once we set the, the idea of doing that, just, it just all kind of came together in my mind and, and you need one, I wanted to have one strong umbrella brand that could, you know, tie into the distillery tie, the, the, the, the brand and the different expressions. And, you know, I suppose what we had in Kudi was too much, we had all these old brands and we had Kudi the distillery go be, we had kind of married, two kind, just too confusing.

Jack (00:30:15):
Yeah. So we just had 1, 1, 1 brand, one name and, and kind of layer hat and that, and you know, we were, as you said comfortable doing it once we could establish that, you know, line to the past. Yeah. But what, what it was very important to me was that we didn't want to, you know, right on the past was it was all about building that new future or presence and, and, and, and, and develop a new chapter for, for our family. Yeah. And again, get away from the Cooley history for me, because, you know, again, that's someone else owns those brands now it's known too me. And I suppose I wanted to, to that, that for, for me, and, and then my brother joining, you know, us to, to carve out our own kind of piece of history. That's different to my, my father's history.

Drew (00:31:02):
Yeah. So were west cor and Dingle in the works at that time? Or were you guys really kind of the first one to jump out? Yeah. Do your

Jack (00:31:11):
Own thing. Good question. Dingle was, was there thereabouts cuz I know, I remember all of Oliver Hughes getting the idea and how he was raising money. So that was really, you know, kicking off around that time. I think he was, had the idea around 2011 or so slightly before could had been sold. And then I think that could had been sold was kind of the, the kicker to kind of push on with it. Yeah. and well score were floating around doing different things, but not really in the whiskey space drum bag. It was kind of a whiskey, 30% whiskey kind of spirit. Yeah. Different things like that. So, but they weren't in production or anything like that. And, and what we were, we, we were, I suppose, at the core of what, what we want to be as a brand was, was to get back into production as soon as we can.

Jack (00:32:01):
And we said from the start was, this is our, where we're, we're gonna do, we're gonna do in Dublin, we're gonna do it because cuz of all that history that was there that had been slipping away and also our own links to that. And, and you know, I definitely felt, I remember there was the London whiskey company that set up and I went, this is just ridiculous. If someone can set up a whiskey that's distillery in London, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, why isn't someone doing it in, in Dublin? Like, you know, that has all the history and, and it's very different to, you know, Glasgow or, or, or Edinburgh or New York, cuz this was until, you know, I was born. Yeah. You know, a massive production area for, for Irish whiskey. So it, it was

Drew (00:32:43):
Real and it was a place known for quality whiskey. Well,

Jack (00:32:45):
Exactly. Yeah. And, and where the big brands of even today their origins have come from. So, so it made sense to me at a muster difference, but also I'm a governor mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, going down to the countryside and putting it doesn't, it's not, it's not my home. Like this is Dublin is different to the rest of, of Ireland. And it's, it's, it's a mixture of old, new, it's a cosmopolitan city now and had energy to it that I felt I wanted to, to, to have an Irish whiskey, to, to tap into that and to present it in a different way. And I'll be honest with you, it's quite hard, you know, going international and talking about Dublin versus Ireland because people think of Ireland as you know, the countryside. Yeah. Rather than, you know, I,

Drew (00:33:25):
I heard you in an interview, a Google interview where you were saying something to the effect of that people think there's still horses and buggies going through center town really

Jack (00:33:34):
It's it's it's true. And I, I was shocked. Yeah. I still am it's and, and I think we had, we were focusing on spirit of Dublin and all that kind of stuff like that. And we thought people would get the, the understanding of it. And, and I think it's, you know, again, I think I was doing it for the Google staff in there and there were, there are people who come to Ireland and are living in Dublin and, and they would get it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but you know, perhaps people who are in Silicon valley in, in, in the us or in, you know, Chicago, I've never been to Ireland, but know about Ireland. And they think of a, they don't think of, of, and maybe don't like the idea of a modern Ireland. They like the idea of the romantic view of a traditional Ireland. But that's not what we, I want to be represented of. Yeah. Like, you know, I wanna represent that we're a modern city you know, there's a reason why all tech guys come here because it is a place that people like to do. We do have a, a rich tapestry of the past, but you know, we're doing some interesting things now. Yeah. And you know, it's not all about the horse and carts or, you know you

Drew (00:34:35):
Still have cobblestone streets, still

Jack (00:34:36):
Cobblestone streets, but you know, it's you know, you'd, hopefully you have good mixology accounts in there. Yeah. And that you have the old Guinness pubs, but you also have the new kind of craft distilleries and breweries and all that kinds stuff. So like that's what me, we were trying to represent that the tension between the old and new, but look, it's, it's, it's struggled sometimes to do that at a consumer level on, on, on to make it easy to understand, because it can be a confusing, conflicting message too, to people. But look, that's what we're trying to do.

Drew (00:35:04):
Yeah. Not as difficult as I, that was a web designer for many years, still, still am. And I had a school come to me and they wanted me to do a design for them. And they said, we want this ultramodern design, but their logo was a night. And the font that they were using for their their logo was a medieval kind of font. And I'm going, okay. Those

Jack (00:35:31):
So

Drew (00:35:31):
Hard to do. These are a little too disparate for me to figure out how to, how to do that with with whiskey though. I guess there's a, a way that you can still honor the past yet move forward with what you're making. Yeah. and push the limits.

Jack (00:35:46):
Yeah. And I think there's, there's, there's plenty of skill for innovation. And I think there's a lot of rules and regulations. That's just the way it is. But within that you know, when we started back in 2012 there wasn't, let's say a massive innovation culture within Irish whiskey because didn't need it. Yeah. Or if you're in just a, you're you 40% triple to distill, you know, standard Irish whiskey, that's what, you know, and that's what people wanted and fair enough. But, you know, I think we knew that if we had something that was gonna be just the same as someone else, like, you know, you're not gonna stand out from the crowd, you're not gonna have that points of difference. You're not actually gonna add to, to the, to the, the choice the category and we wanted to do was, was, was push, you know, the category in, in, in, in a more premium way and bring things with more taste into the category and, and help that.

Jack (00:36:40):
And, and, you know, we looked globally at what was, you know, what we liked in terms of, of different finishes. And, you know, you looked about venue, you looked at angel envy, all these guys that were, you know, looking, taking a tradition product, but just putting its, its spins. So weird were saying, okay, what's the peeling twist? What are we gonna twist this? Why are we gonna make it interesting? And you know, what sort of barrels could we do? So, so, you know, at that stage we were, we were getting whiskey, but we owned it in our own warehouse. So it was like, you know, it wasn't like you were just buying in, they were bottling it, we could get it and then we could do something different to it. And that was very important because, you know, functionally, I, I felt to, to have a, a, a different, a real brand, you had to have a functionally different liquid.

Jack (00:37:23):
You had to something that had have unique taste so that when you had a tasting at a bar or someone was there, you know, yours is gonna stand out. They go, oh yeah, that's healing. And look, you know, and that's what we went about doing, finding a way to create something that tasted different that could get people on a journey of discovery within different expressions of what we have, but also within Irish whiskey, because there was a big gap between your standard offerings and your red breasts and your middle, very rare. And there, there, there didn't seem to be a ladder to get there. Yeah. Yeah. and you know, we said, okay, let's let's and again, look, it was a, it was contr, you know, what, what price point need to be? What's the we've gotta be and what can we do <laugh> yeah.

Jack (00:38:03):
And you know, that's why we took their kind of the single malt finishing mentality to blend whiskey. And you know, the 46% non shell filter, all the stuff that, you know, again was being done within single malts. But we said, well, well, I said, to be honest, why can't we do it blend? Like, why not? Yeah. Like what we were like, oh, okay, well, yeah, we could. And it was an easier way to do it because I think, you know, we could have done with a single mob, but then you're in a different category. You're kind of pigeonholed as something. And we felt, and within Irish whiskey, it was predominantly Blands and still is. Yeah. So, but could you do something, you know, equally as interesting and flavorsome of that again, opens people's eyes and start asking the question. Yeah. And that was really where we started.

Drew (00:38:49):
Yeah. It's it's interesting to see. And that, that decision that you kind of have to make as to what is your flagship product gonna be and what statement does it make for the audience that now sees a new bottle show up on their shelves with a name that maybe they know, maybe they don't know

Jack (00:39:08):
Well, when we were starting off, like, and even now, you know, we're still a small brand and, and, you know, there's lots of ways you go and they wanna know who we are. So I remember when we were, we, we were starting off in the us and we go into a lot of the bars and people go don't, don't talk to me. Yeah. Let me taste, you know, and if it didn't, didn't interest them, then they didn't want to hear the story. Yeah. And, and, and that to me is, is, you know, that's good, but we have to make sure we deliver. And, and again, my view was we were bringing some credibility from our whiskey making days in coolly. You know, last thing we wanna do is to fall down with regard to what the liquids be. So, so we focus on that innovative cast maturation, and, and we, again, I took the learnings of what was working coolly.

Jack (00:39:52):
And one thing that had been working was we were using grain CA or room cast in molds, but also in grain mm-hmm <affirmative> and they were working boat. And we said, well, if this works in boat, why don't we just do for blend let's destroy it and see what happens. And you know, we had tried other things about you, your standards, you know, fortified wines and all that sort of stuff like that. But the one that stood out with tasting groups that we did with some guys from Irish whiskey society and other kind of just people industry players, what was the Rome cast finish or marrying process, because it was different mm-hmm <affirmative> and that's all that's that's was enough for me. Yeah. That gave me the confidence that we were, we were on the right track. And it just kind of started our journey of, of, of kind of discovery with that. And we kicked off with that. And then, you know, we always felt there was a need to have, you know, a range of offerings for the type of consumers that we were going after, and type of partners that were looking for type of retailers going to be in. And so we went to single grain and single malts kind of route to, to have that choice of, of unique expressions, all with their own kind of let's say signature of 46% non she filter, but unique cast finish as well.

Drew (00:41:01):
Yeah. I think that's the thing I find most fascinating. I did a tasting video where I tasted the single grain healing versus Nico coffee grain versus Melo corn. We're talking about three different corn whiskeys that are from three different countries and so very different, so different, different from each other. Yeah. Yeah. And the wine cast finishing that you do, I think actually adds a character to it that sometimes corn feels like it needs a little a boost from something. Yeah. I mean, in, in bourbon they use what they call flavoring grains to help add some character to the, to the spirit. So what made you settle on wine casts for, did you go through like a process of many different types of casts before you arrived at that? Well,

Jack (00:41:53):
We had, in our Q days it was a green or single grain, which was a fully first fill bourbon matured, which was, you know, very sweet, lots of vanillas. And again, we wanted to do something different and for that one, it was a fully matured, so not finished in, in limousine, French Oak mm-hmm <affirmative>, which again brings in a different taste profile than your BN barrels and, and the wine. But I always see grain whiskey, particularly Irish grain whiskey as, as, as a lovely canvas. So it's kind of hard to screw up. Yeah. So, you know, after three, four years maturation, any class is gonna be okay, it's gonna be good, but it does take soak up a lot of character from different things. And, yeah, it was a little bit of experimentation of, of what would work with with, with with, let's say different casts for, for grain overall.

Jack (00:42:51):
But I think we were lucky that we actually had some, some, some liquid that we had already filled yeah. To allow us to kind of release it. And we were very happy with what was coming out. And we were like, well, you know, we could play around or we could, you know, kind of, we notice this works, you know how, how long does it have to be? And we found around five years was kind of the optimal period within this task. It wasn't ready after three or, you know, three years, it was still a bit too rough. But it was a combination of the fruit despite, and, and the underlying sweetness after that five years maturation, that, that just hit, hit a sweet spot for us. And again, for me fitted in, in the landscape of, of, of, of grain whiskeys.

Jack (00:43:33):
Yeah. And that was, again, it's like, when you think of grain whiskey, you not just think about Irish. You think about the kind of global ones. And we wanted to have something that was unique within grain whiskeys and definitely that, that Cabernet. So on French Oak, just for me from a taste perspective, worked, and we have played around with different things. Like we have a more age green whiskey where we have used different barrels and we have one now we're hoping to come out depending on it, which is more of a, a white wine finish something onlan again, because some of the subtler, you know, fruit flavors in wine with grain, they can pick it up. Yeah. So we're kind of excited pushing that a little bit further in, in, in what we can actually get out of it

Drew (00:44:16):
With choosing barrels. Did you have any wild experiments of a barrel type that you're like, I really probably don't think this is gonna work

Jack (00:44:27):
<Laugh> well, we still do. Yeah. We have a load of, of, of ours cuz a bit like myself, Alex, Chacos my view. My view is you need to have tools in toolkit and you don't know if they're gonna be any good or not. Yeah. So, so let's try a lot of different things and there's a difference between R and D and, and new product development for me is that, you know, R and D is you're learning and you're trying things N P D is you actually say, well, this fits, this is good. The liquid's good. I can see how it's gonna live in the universe of different things. So, so we're constantly doing things and we have some stuff that we haven't released. And we've tried lots of different things. Some things that start off you think are not gonna work, then actually come out, you know, looking really good.

Jack (00:45:10):
You know, we have some interesting ones, like we've done some Aquavit ones, which again, shouldn't work, but actually do, but we're kind of, we think that was really good, but we're not sure how people are gonna like warm to it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so I haven't really done too much around that. We've done it like, you know, and my view is if you get a good, if you have you're, you're already true. The base maturation, your underlying product is good. You get a good barrel, you know, had a good spirit or, or, you know, beer or anything in it. Reality reality, the resulting thing is gonna be, is gonna be good, but how good is it gonna be? Yeah. Or how weird Iraq gonna be like, we're, we've just released our second iteration of a pineapple rum that we do at plantation where they actually M the pineapples in the rum cast and so forth.

Jack (00:45:59):
So you, you think it's like, how the hell this gonna actually works very well. We've done ginger beer. Yeah. One, we're just releasing again with a umbrella brewing in, in London. And it works really well. It's like basically you know, drinking like a ginger and, and Irish whiskey kind of, you know, drink, but you get it straight. So it kind of works really well. We have Moji sushi, sushi cast we have from Japan. We haven't released that one yet. I dunno. I'm trying to think we have black forests for removed. We have Danish snaps. We have. Wow. I can't even think, but we had 70 or 75. Yeah. Different cast, different types of things. And, and again it's fun. Yeah. But like literally you was talking that, so is there anything left that we could actually do?

Jack (00:46:50):
And we're actually now going more into, to the different types of wood. So rather than the different types of beers or spirits that have been Asian to, to, to actually see, for example, subtle difference between different types of Oak between and we're doing wonders of wood, for example with our single pot still we've done Chico pin American Oak. We have a Virgin Portuguese Oak. We have a Caucasian Oak Cian Oak. There's lots of Swedish Oak. Yeah. Just to see the, the difference is what could potentially come out within the different talents that would be in these Oak cast. We've done lots of different things like chestnuts and cherry Acia Ash. Yeah. So, so, so playing around with

Drew (00:47:30):
That, this is the fun part about the Irish whiskey industry is that they allow different types of wood to be the one that I think is sort of missing, but I understand the tree doesn't grow very well in terms of supplying staves is Irish Oak.

Jack (00:47:44):
Yeah. We've actually managed to get some Irish Oak, have you? Yeah. We've, we've we've we were, we worked with another distillery in Ireland or, you know, soon to be distillery or maybe, you know, not quite a distillery. Yeah. But maybe looking at doing things where they sourced, they wanted, you know, they didn't want the full talent influence of the Irish Oak. So, so we actually did the first maturation in, and we actually are distillery exclusive that we're selling in there is blended our Swiss skills to be mature in our show. So okay. It's, it's just hard because you can, you can get some, but then you have to send it to France to get it dry aged and then, you know, the cooperage and so forth. So it's, it's just a lengthy process. You know, we'd love to, to, to do with our dub distill whiskey here with, with, let's say trees have, have fallen within Phoenix park and kind of have a lovely synergy of that.

Jack (00:48:37):
So, so things like that we'd need to do, but it's a very complicated supply chain. So yes, it's a long term project and something that we are looking at, but we haven't, you know, got at the stage to a commercial level point, but it's fun, you know, that's the fun thing. And, and also, you know, so we're playing around, you know, different mash bills and everything like that. So there's so much different levers that you can do to change around. Like for example, even our mash bill no, our are sorry, our yeast strains, we're using a portfolio of different yeast strains and we have different projects of, of let's say, how will our base whiskey change if we use different yeast and so forth. So

Drew (00:49:12):
You actually use a white wine yeast, that's it. So I understand with your distillers yeast yeah.

Jack (00:49:17):
With distillers yeast, just to bring in some of those more fruit flavors that we want was always, you know, we know what we want. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> just, what way can we, you know, deliver on that? And you know, again, the ye strain makes, makes substantially substantial different. And that's coming true in our base product. So, so I think we started off with that kind of fruity flavor from the, the whiskeys we had bought mm-hmm <affirmative> and we wanted to try and, you know, keep that with our own dis as well.

Drew (00:49:47):
Yeah. So you upped the, a B from where it was traditionally, I say traditionally from the way it was just prior to to Cooley and, and and that era, but what about triple distillation? Was there a moment where you said should we triple distill, should we double distill? And what was your reasoning?

Jack (00:50:11):
Yeah, it's good. Good question. I think one that we had, I'd seen the challenges with double distilled at a, at a, just a, just explain to people why you do it. And they're like, why do you do it? Does that matter? What Scott, do you know why? And then once we made a decision to, to have a distillery in Dublin, I think we had to triple distill. I think it was just because again, that was what Dublin was famous for. That's what, you know, I think they got their global reputation for quality based off a certain way of, of doing it. And, and again, just to be respectful to that history and rather than coming in jar and trying to, you know, something quite different we set up the, the, the distill of triple we have, we do double still. Yeah, we have, and we we'll be releasing a double distilled heavily repeated product this year.

Jack (00:51:01):
So we are the ability to do it and we, we set up to do it, but our signature taste profile come from the triple distillation. And you know, I think I, I think it's the right thing to do. Yeah. It is harder to retain, obviously some of the, the, the flavors that you want to carry through. But triple distillation does allow your product to, to, to be good or, or appropriate to be bottled at a young age. Yeah. That's the difference, like if you have a big, dirty spirit yeah. Just age for 10, 12, 14 years, that's fine. But you know, we, I suppose the triple, the it's very hard to have a dirty spirit. Yeah. Just because of the, the, the process

Drew (00:51:43):
It's been interesting traveling around Ireland and seeing with all the new distilleries that are popping up the attitudes between double distilled and, and triple distilled, and trying to figure out, you know, how these distilleries are saying, where are we gonna go with this? And what's the reasoning behind it. And, and in some cases I'm seeing distilleries where they're bringing in outside voices yeah. That are saying, well, why, why would you triple distill? Or, you know, so it's interesting to see that with the number of new distilleries coming in, they're now experiencing what you had to experience many years ago in terms of trying to get into new markets trying to get into the us. I probably that's one of the things that I probably hear the most of going around. I know it's not in any other industry. You wouldn't really give advice to your competitors <laugh> but, but the whiskey industry

Jack (00:52:40):
Seems different. I need to give any advice cuz it's, it is hard. And I think everyone now, cuz it's no so noisy, they're trying to carve out their own space. And if you think about why, why did Cooley decide to double it still? They decided to double still because they were, you know, I suppose a lot of the, the ideas came from Scotland cuz Scotland was doing well, single mals were doing well. They were all double distilled mm-hmm <affirmative>. And also for example, they got, they bought the old comer potstill, so they had two potstills. So what are you gonna do? You gotta double the steel together, right? Yeah. But you know, what's interesting now is people are consciously making the decision to double the seal to make it different to the triple the seal that's out there, which is, which is interesting. Yeah.

Jack (00:53:20):
And again, it's just a very noisy thing and it's hard to stand out from the crowd and you have to find some, some way to do so. So, so I think a lot of it's been driven from also that the brand identity of who they are and why they're doing it, you know, some whiskeys, you know, that they're not having to E in it, for example, like, you know, it's fair enough. Like, you know, everyone's trying to do something a little bit, you know, as you said different. But yeah, I, I, I, I openly say, I think, you know, it's noisier, but if you do do something different, mm-hmm, <affirmative> you do something with your own identity, you do something with your own liquid that adds to the category adds to the, the, the whole spectrum of, of either, if it's from a determent, from the experiences, from the liquid perspective to, to your storytelling perspective, well then there's room for you.

Jack (00:54:06):
The problem is, you know, there's a lot of people out there that kind of are me toos in a way, you know, I'm not, I like, they're just because they're saying, oh, they're, let's try and do something like that. Yeah. And, and, and I don't think that's the right thing to I've, I've, I've, I've, I've been true. It mm-hmm <affirmative> that, that doesn't work in the long term. You have to actually, you know, do, and I think that's, there's a lot of people that maybe don't have the, the industry experience of, of, you know, maybe you haven't been enough in these expert markets to real realize that, unless you do that, then it's gonna be hard to find an importer. Okay. You might get an importer, but then it's gonna be hard to get on the shelf. And then one more importantly is how are you gonna get people to buy it?

Jack (00:54:42):
Not just once a couple of times. Yeah. So cuz it's, it's, it's, you know, everyone's attracted by the us cuz it's the huge, you know, 5 million cases, you know, the big behemoth in the room and you know, lot of, lot of Irish ancestry too. No, but also just premium spirits. Yeah. It's the biggest premium spirits mark in the world. And you know, it was very important for us. Like, you know, that's, we, we, we want, we for all our brand like us, we have to be successful in the us. And if we can't be successful in the us, well then something wrong. We're not, we're not set settled for success. Because you know, we feel like the category's ready for us and you know, there other offerings doing the category or within the premium spirits that, that, you know, consumers should understand what we're talking and what, what we're doing, but it doesn't make it any doesn't it doesn't make it any easier to get in there.

Jack (00:55:35):
Cause it's a very expensive market. Even, you know, I'm sure a lot of the American distilleries you go to take struggle like, you know, to get the traction, cuz it's such a diverse yeah. Market with so many large players in it. And with, you know, the, the wholesalers having a stranglehold on, on, on, on the, on the industry. And, and they're in the back pocket of the big guys, so it's just a tough market. But, but even within that, there is opportunities, but it's about picking your battles when you're the smaller guys, especially when you're limited resources in terms of human resource at blossom financial resources and probably taking a medium terms to long term view, if you can. Yeah. And that's, that's hard when you're kind of struggling for, you know, today working capital and you know, maybe investors saying, why aren't you doing this or doing that or whatever. So, so, but this is a long term industry and it's, it's, you know, it's unusual to, to be very successful in a short period of time. Yeah. and it's about doing the right things over and over. And again,

Drew (00:56:32):
When you're seeing a industry that's exploding to now 45 distillery plus distilleries, I mean I have actually 50 plus on my list. Not all of them necessarily have their equipment, you know, functioning at the moment. Yeah. But they're getting there and will someday get to that point and Ireland has not really had this distilling industry for this for a long time.

Jack (00:56:58):
Do

Drew (00:56:59):
You see already kind of a stretching to other markets to find distilling talent and to be able to pull people in to be able to supply Ireland with the, the workforce at need?

Jack (00:57:12):
It's been like that for 20 years. Yeah. You know, the people who, who advise Kudi back, you know, whatever longer than 20 years, whatever it was like in the eighties were Scottish guys, you know? So and Billy Walker was a big advisor there for a long time and trained up the guys to get there. So, so, you know, it's been a very, very insular small industry for a long time. So it's, it's, it's at the moment. It's just like, you know, it's very, very challenging. But you know, I think sometimes people probably overthink what's involved in it. You need, you need help. Yeah. But you know, there's some, you know, we've trained up a load of people, a lot of, you know, even people from brewing background to, cause it's not that much different, but you know, Alex CHASCo, who is our master distiller, master, blender, whatever just was there first employee back in June, he's American just happened to be in Ireland cuz his wife is Irish and workforce in Cooley and was working down in Coben and kind of got caught up with the changeover a beam.

Jack (00:58:25):
So it was a perfect time to come in. So, so he, when he learned really his background was brewing and he did a masters in Harry Watts in, in brewing distilling. But he got his real experience in Ireland anyway, mm-hmm <affirmative> but I think he brought a kind of a different view set because if you, if you're work in Ireland, all your life, for example, if you had worked in, in Middleton for 20 years, you become institutional, that's how you do things. So, so I think it, it is good to get outside people to come in, but it's hard to find because I think it's, it's, it's not only an Irish farm, it's a global firm in that, you know, there's massive, you know, if you look in Japan or anywhere like, you know, the amount of, I think four sites we're telling, I think they put in 20 new distilleries in Japan you know, so that's just there, but it's across the whole of Europe across the whole of the us, you know, there's a series popular all over place.

Jack (00:59:20):
But you know, so it's a tight labor market for that. And particularly people in the early days when you're just making sure that the process is set up correctly and that your base spirit is, is fine. And then, you know, reality, I think once you have the process set up, then it's not as challenging in terms of managing the process. Yeah. But it's getting us itself the first time. So you're seeing a big emergence of, of, of consultants and advisors and all that kind of stuff like that. So yeah. But there has been a big influx in, in of American distillers coming into to Ireland you know and from all over the down tingle, like you obviously from Scotland and so forth. So, so look, it's just the nature of the beast. And, and the one thing that is, is, is, is, is very fluid and it's human capital and they'll go to where the opportunities are and they make more money during, in Ireland and than Scotland. And, you know, I'm sure you'll see more of that, you know, as, as things evolve as well. Yeah.

Drew (01:00:17):
So when did you lay down your first barrels of your own whiskey?

Jack (01:00:23):
That's a good question. So we started commissioning around March, 2015. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> when did we actually, cuz we started, we got the process up and running. We had to stop at them cuz we had to put the mezzanine floor in on top of it. So you know, and again, the way our, our system works here is that, you know, we don't cast here on site. We CA up in green or, and county cloud. So it wouldn't have gone up to cast. So I think it was around June, 2015 early June. I don't, I can't remember the date off the top of my head. And yeah, it was like, I remember I remember yeah, the first distance coming off and you know, concern of this wasn't taste. Right. What's going on. Ah, yeah. You know, you know, there's always an unknown once you get up and running and you know, your first batches aren't gonna be your best anyway.

Jack (01:01:24):
And but yeah, it was, it was just a sense of achievement that we managed to, to do, but we were trying to open the visitor center at the same time, which was another challenge. So everything was going to parallel. Yeah. <laugh> it was just like too many things at once trying to like, you know, make sure the toilets worked like, you know, making sure that the cement was laid correctly outside. So, so we did make our life easy. Yeah. but you know, it was what we wanted to do. And it was kind of crazy period of my life with young kids and everything like that. And it was, was, was busy. And I think, you know, I was in my thirties late thirties and it was like, I suppose if you're not busy, then when you gonna be busy.

Jack (01:02:02):
Yeah. So now's the time to do it. Like, you know, you don't need sleep, you don't need this, but it's great. It was a huge amount of energy. And we were, everyone was, was aligned with what we wanted to do and major challenges around cash flow and all that kind of stuff like that. Which if I was ever doing again, I'd try to do just cause we, we, we, we were all self financing at that stage. Like, you know, so we'd bought a lot of inventory and all that sort of stuff like that. So we had a lot of loans and we were trying to generate cash up from selling the stock and all that kind of stuff like that. So we just had to, whatever you could. Yeah. Like you ended up selling parcels of stock off to other people just to get, you know, money in the door and pay the bills and all that kind of stuff like that. So, so it was crazy, but, but you know, I, I, I got a lot of a huge amount of respect from what David Hines and my dad did in Cooley in particularly, you know, they had other challenges, but you know, it's just hard, you know, doing something, you know, building something from scratch and just all the licensing, all the, kind of the, the building, the, all the variables that go on with it. Did

Drew (01:03:07):
You, did you have legal issues with trying to set up a distillery in Dublin was the, the city excited about the idea or was it kind of a, and did laws have to be changed to allow

Jack (01:03:19):
It 2012? It was, you couldn't imagine how bad Ireland was. We were the depth of reception. It was just, it was such a horrible time. I'll be honest with you. So negative, everyone was negative. And you know, the property market was UN sneezed. Like we burst to cut tiger property bubble was truly burst, but you know, and it was all this like everything's bankrupt and all that kind of stuff like that. But, you know, there was all this development land that hadn't, you know, be developed that I thought I could buy and I was, you know, naive. Yeah. Very naive and just thought it was gonna be easy. And but it wasn't. So even finding somewhere was really, really challenging because no one wanted to sell because that was gonna criticize losses. And you know, there obviously everything was for sale, but nothing was for sale.

Jack (01:04:01):
Yeah. Because the banks didn't wanna sell because that triggered a, you know, revaluation of loans and all that kind. So it was a headache. So it was all about, oh no, it would be fine. Just we'll keep going. So, so I remember going in and, but I was looking at places down the docks cuz I thought, okay, this is a big, big sweats of land, you know, get stuff in blah, blah, blah, blah made, made sense. And they were like, no, not gonna happen. You know, it's not gonna happen here, but you go talk to this guy called Kean rose. And he was a development officer for Dublin city council and I, I, he didn't even have to pitch him. He was just bought into it. He just saw the need for, you know, something like, you know, distilling understood the background, understood the area and the particularly deliveries area.

Jack (01:04:44):
And he had a list of 10 different places. Mm. And the number one of the top was, was new market, whereas around here. But I didn't know how to get into anything. So again, I walked around and like, oh yeah, it could be. But like it's not for sales. So who the hell do I talk to? And then someone that showed me cuz I kind of had, I had publicized what I was doing. And so some people started bringing projects to you and there was a site around the corner and as part of it, they said, oh, this would be a great maturation warehouse. And, and I walked around, it was like 10,000 square foot had a bit of a loading bay and, and kind of separate from things. And I went, this is perfect. And it was true, a contact that, that lived in the same area in dub, just outside of the city.

Jack (01:05:30):
And his son was in my younger brothers school and we got a contact and we, we got again agreement, but based on getting plan permission, so subject to plan permission. And I thought, oh, they'd be fairly straightforward. And why wouldn't day? Because look, that guy, Karen was so supportive, but we started talking to him and they were like the distillery in the Csection <laugh> should we talk about no, no, no, no. Yeah. I said, oh look, it has this zoning on it. And oh, we're changing that zoning. I said, what do you mean change? That's a different zoning there that doesn't mean you're allowed to have industrial or, or I said, well, it's not really industrial. It's cultural <laugh> <laugh> but, but yeah, no, it became a bottle of let's say just keep going. So we, we actually had a local planning officer said, no, you're not, it's not suitable.

Jack (01:06:17):
You put in the planning, we're gonna, you're gonna be rejected. So don't even try. Yeah. But then we start, we, and again, it's a very bureaucratic system. Where in our end, if you put in a planning application, anyone couldn't object in the whole country and we are very aware of, of a lot of developments that are here now and a huge amount of opposition just cuz people didn't want them to, to come in. So we are fearful for multitude. One of the authorities of, of refusing it because it didn't have the right kind of zoning in the area. Secondly, our competitors might put in an objection secondly, or lastly, just the locals. Yeah. So it took a long time. And also I had an architect to come in, do a bit of work and the first design was they actually a big glass box that looked like a, a car showroom that to me just didn't fit in.

Jack (01:07:07):
So we had to get rid of them and go. And then we found an architect that had done a lot of the work on the Busby, distill, rebuilding them into apartments and offices to understand the area, understood the combination, all the new and, and kind of listened to what I wanted because I could talk for an hour and you think someone would know what you wanted and they go off and do it, but they just didn't get it at all. Yeah. So I had to nearly draw it out. What I wants is, and anyway, she listened and, and, and helped at a stakeholder level locally and in there. And the head of planning said, look, you put this in and we'll push this lady to the side and we'll get it through. Because we, we believe this is good for Dublin.

Jack (01:07:48):
This is good for the area. And, and, you know, look, it's not going to blow up the areas and I'm gonna burn it down, you know, you're right beside Guinness, the Guinness have a new, you I'm sure you'll do it right. Cuz blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like <laugh>, that's what they say, but you put it in and you have no idea. And I remember we got the phone call saying we had got the thing. I was shocked. Nice. I was shocked. And that was around the end of 2013. And that just made it all real. And then we had to go out there and actually say, okay, well now we have to pay for the site. Now we have to, you know, to, to, to build it and, and to start the process. And we, we, it took us around six months and then we started during the summer of 2014.

Jack (01:08:29):
And, you know, we turned basically everything around within nine to 10 months because we'd done so much work around the, the process around you know, the vendors of who wanted and so forth. Like we, we had thought we were gonna go to four sites, but then we had also, we decided we were gonna go with Friley. We were, you know, making Potel in Italy and so forth. So we'd done the we'd gone to Italy, we'd checked them out and, you know, so, so it was an easy decision to push it forward, but even finding builders and going through all that process was, was, was, was the challenge. Yeah, for me again, just cuz I had no background in, in doing that at all. And was, was, was, was painful. But, but again, very rewarding at the end of

Drew (01:09:10):
It. Yeah. With your logo, does it kind of symbolize in some ways for you the idea that not only you're reviving distilling in Dublin but also kind of bringing a new fresh look to, to Irish whiskey and that you were kind of on the forefront of that from what your, what your dad did, he was bringing back historic brands and, and rekindling that, but you starting something brand new. Really?

Jack (01:09:40):
Yeah, it was, it was definitely the Phoenix had a lot of strong messages that we, we, we believed in, but I suppose the <laugh>, this is the truth. This is how things work. It was like, you know where the name team was. Oh yeah. It came because of this. It was like, we were dealing with these designers and I pitched the idea to 'em what we wanted and all that kind of stuff like that. And, and you know, these guys, big companies, you know, done a lot of big stuff, never dealing with Irish whiskey when I really liked, they were disruptive kind of design. But you know they were like, oh, you're a small brand. We'll do it for like, you know, I think it was like 5,000 or even seven and half thousand sting, which was more than I've ever spent on design <laugh> she's like, it couldn't even be 10.

Jack (01:10:23):
I can't even remember, but it was a lot, I was like, Jesus Christ <laugh> and they say, we'll give you one design just from this won't you Don have any choices, but yeah. And so I said, yeah, but these guys know what they're doing. Yeah. So, and they came back and it was, you know, I knew the bot I wanted and all that sorts of, so it was, you know, I had given them the bases and they were, you know, came back with the, the, the logo typeface and, and so forth. But they had come back with, with this iconography of a fighting Irishman, basically with a, you know, a Paddy cap on, oh, and I said, look, that's just not us. There's not where we are. We're not, you know, we're, we're, we're trying to develop a more modern name. Well, they were like, well, this is what you get.

Jack (01:11:01):
And I said, well, no, it's not. Cause I don't want it's wrong. That's not what I said. I said, okay, well, look, I'll come back to you with some suggestions and you'll make it work. And they went okay. But like literally they were like, who's this Irish guy telling us what to do. And I came back saying, look, it's either gonna be a Phoenix. Yeah. You know because of what we're trying to achieve, or I like the, the old, you know, the fight or sorry, the three stars that were on a lot of the, the old triple distilled Dublin based products as a strong iconography. And they went, look, we'll make the Phoenix work cuz you know, I think it ties in better. And we said, perfect. So I thought beautiful. That was it. Yeah, that was, you know, so it was, it was I suppose it was our vision, but it came out because of, of, of designer not necessarily listening to what and, and it just worked and, and it works. And, and, and now a lot of things we do is just the Phoenix on its own. You know, we take the name off because we think it's hopefully associated with us now. And it's actually a Phoenix rising from a pot still as well, just to symbolize that Rebert of Dublin distilling and, and Rebert of our name, but also in a way the evolution of, of, of the Irish whiskey category and, and really, I suppose, hopefully symbolizes the energy that's in it now.

Drew (01:12:16):
Well, Jack, thank you so much for taking time and talking through and given, you know, a, an eye into this rebirth of Irish whiskey and really that, that bridge to new creativity coming in. And I wish you, the, the most success in, in what you're doing well,

Jack (01:12:34):
There's plenty more to come. Yeah.

Drew (01:12:35):
So

Jack (01:12:36):
You know, we're, we're we have a whole pipeline of interesting, unique continuing whiskey expressions on its way. So, so hopefully we can continue the journey. We're not there yet. And you know, hopefully if anyone comes to dub, they come see us and walk around the distillery cuz you get hopefully a good sense of what we're about. And you know, look thank you for coming in and best of luck with your

Drew (01:12:59):
<Laugh>. Thank

Jack (01:13:00):
You. Very ongoing journey around the islands of

Drew (01:13:03):
Ireland. Absolutely. Thank you so much. And if you wanna learn more about Teeling whiskey or you play the tour of the distillery, just head to Teeling whiskey.com, make sure to join me next week, as I'm honored to have the godfather of Irish whiskey and Jack's own father John Teeling on the show. As we recall his amazing journey from his teenage years, when he helped save the family business to his journey and mission of bringing Irish whiskey back to prominence. And don't forget to check out the whiskey lore stories podcast this Thursday with the first of two episodes on Campbelltown Scotland and the possibility of Irish monks, bringing whiskey to Scotland as early as the fifth century find whiskey lore stories, wherever you get this podcast and for show notes, transcripts and links to whiskey LO's social media, head to whiskey-lo.com. I'm your host drew Hamish until next time. Cheers, head salon. Giva Atlan GVA whiskey, Lords of production of travel fuels life LLC.